Evolving Ecosystems The What and How of Change Management with Albert Oktovianus

Are you navigating the waves of change in the digital era? Lean in as Albert Octovianus, the LinkedIn luminary and maestro of change management, unravels the fabric of digital transformation, focusing on the human element within the vast ecosystem of progress. In a conversation that transcends time zones, Albert's personal saga from engineering to marketing unfolds, revealing the mosaic of experiences that have honed his expertise in personal branding and maintaining a harmony between work and life's passions.

This episode is a treasure chest of strategies for the aspiring leader. Albert steers us through the nuances of change management with the finesse of a seasoned captain. He champions a people-centric HR approach, mapping out employee journeys to uncover transformative opportunities. Listen as we dissect the essential equilibrium between quick wins and the patience required for long-term success, and Albert's personal tales that echo the emotional complexity of transitioning teams from traditional practices to digital frontiers.

Our voyage concludes with Albert's insights into cultivating ecosystems that bolster digital transformations and the art of mentorship. The discussion sails through the cultural perceptions of failure and the impact of our actions on every stakeholder in the corporate sea. Albert's commitment to guiding rising talent through career milestones is not just discussed; it's demonstrated. Join us for a masterclass in leadership that promises to empower you to create your own ecosystem of success.

Connect with Albert at:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/albert-okto/


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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

All right, what is going on? L&m family? I am here with LinkedIn superstar Mr Albert Octavianus, who has sacrificed his time and stayed up to midnight to be here and share all of the amazing insights that he's had throughout his career. You know he's a change management expert first, and what really captures my attention is that he spends a lot of time or at least most of his posts that I've seen lately are about digital transformations, and what stands out to me is two things about that. He speaks about ecosystems in digital transformation, so I think we're going to learn a lot from him from that perspective. The other thing is it's clear that he is a people-centered leader, and I think there's a powerful combination there that folks are going to be able to take some value and apply to their change management issues, or even just in leadership and management right, because you also represent change. And he's also like he's a Aikido expert or practitioner. He's doing all kinds of things to continue his life experience here on the world. And so I'm going to I almost forgot I got to do the L&M shout out and then we'll get to talk to Mr Albert. And so L&M shout out to Renee, who left this review. He says, tremendously inspiring, to say the least.

Speaker 1: 1:30

On the last chapter, I had to hold back the tears because I didn't want the book to end. Thank you, jesse, for sharing this with the world. This was the water that I needed to sprout the seeds you planted in me all the way back in sixth grade. That comes from my hero and my baby brother, rene. He finally read the book that I wrote six months ago and he went ahead and left that review, which, if you can't tell, I'm getting a little choked up because it was a super meaningful review. So, folks, leave me a review, send some comments. I love them and I want to have the opportunity to celebrate you on the next episode. And with that I'm gonna stop jamming. And before it turns, 3 am for mr albert over there. Mr albert, how?

Speaker 2: 2:16

are you doing, sir? Okay, thank you, jc. I mean, like finally got to meet you online directly. Yeah, doing doing great here Doing great. It's a kind of wet season in my country, indonesia, jakarta, and yeah, like you said, it's midnight, but, like we discussed before, it's a good time to catch me, because I'm kind of night owl. Like Batman was my goal to become Batman someday, so you are a night owl then. Huh, yeah, it's actually not by choice, but it's actually by design. I think, okay, okay.

Speaker 1: 2:48

Tell us more about what is the design behind this night owlness.

Speaker 2: 2:51

Okay, so maybe around like 12 or 13 years ago. I think I'm still like most of the normal people out there, but I keep becoming night owl because, when I think around again, almost 10 years ago, my work is actually bringing me to that kind of things, you know, working with some global teams and then, because we have our differences in time, everything else, and then also I'm sure you know that we have like demands from the clients and projects, and so sometimes we are left with no choice but to do it like even after office, because sometimes I don't want to sacrifice my weekends, so I try to do it like okay, this is the weekdays, then I try to finish the weekdays and then the weekend is just for me to detox and decompress with it. So, yeah, that's why I thought it's not like really by choice, but it's by design, and design is actually from my career journey, what I'm hearing is as your career progressed, you got to a point where you were serving clients globally.

Speaker 1: 3:54

So like are you midnight Saturday morning, right now, like you're in the future?

Speaker 2: 3:59

yeah, yeah, yeah, okay you're in the future, you're always ahead of us. That's why I always eat cake right. There's always like a party somewhere in the world.

Speaker 1: 4:09

So let me talk about this ecosystem and digital transformations, but I'm assuming that's not how you began your career, like, how did your career start? Or did you know as a young man that you wanted to be a leader of change and transformation?

Speaker 2: 4:26

Definitely no, definitely no, jesse. I mean, when you know about change, I mean like you're one of them, right, one of the change leaders and change shakers, change makers, I mean our communities and you notice that it's a relentless role as a change maker and to become managing that kind of change. Like not all people are ready for that kind of challenges. But when I started, I think for the past years past and in the recent years, when I was being asked about my career choice and then even in like interviews, something like when people like okay, can you tell us in one words about yourself, what about yourself? And then your journey, and then just like one word, like oh, it's eclectic. Why eclectic? Because like yeah, a combination of several things.

Speaker 2: 5:11

like I started in my my undergrad studies, like in engineering, and I took like the industrial engineers and I took like quality management kind of studies and I actually started in that I do my thesis my thesis in the quality management, in the ISO standardizations, but yeah, but I mean along the way, and then I think I also share a bit with you in your post in the comment section, that I work in the water filtration companies and so in the warehouse, everything else. So that's why I started my career when I was studying, also for my master degrees, right, but then my passion actually is marketing, oh yeah, so it's marketing and that's why I think I learned how to express myself in writings and then how I can get to know all of these things that we call personal branding. Everything else at that I think at the time in personal branding is not that kind of hype. But yeah, yeah, I learned from there. But somehow along the way I saw this little ads in the newspaper for all of the new generations. We used to have job ads in newspapers.

Speaker 2: 6:15

The small one People don't know about that, yeah, and then I saw that Wait, what is it? It's change management. So it's around like 2000,. And I think it's 2002. So like 20 years ago. Oh my God, I just realized it's before Justin Bieber time. Okay, so it's 2002. And then I said change management, it sounds interesting. And then I tried to apply it and at the time in Indonesia, in my country, never heard of that change management.

Speaker 2: 6:42

Change management was being brought by the big force. I think at the time it's mostly Accenture, ibm, the ones implementing the ERP systems in the big companies. So when I applied that and I got like actually I got called by the recruiters when I came to the companies. It's a quite big shock for me, because then the company is actually one of the biggest conglomerates in Indonesia. I'm like why are you putting this small ads in newspapers and with a PO box and with no address? At the time we don't have a big use of emails, unfortunately.

Speaker 2: 7:13

And then the recruiter said, yeah, that's our purpose, because only the persons that are actually interested in change management they't apply or they want to apply. Yeah. So I got in and then at the time you can like count in one hand change management practitioners in Indonesia and most of them are mostly in consultings. And so I got in to become the employees there and I actually asked my boss, saying hey, sir, can I ask you like, why do you accept me to become change management? Because I know nothing about it at the time, there's no school and there's no books around it. And then the boss actually asked me yeah, because you're coming from a marketing background and you have a passion in marketing. I was like, oh, okay, so that's something right.

Speaker 1: 7:58

That is really interesting yeah because why?

Speaker 2: 8:01

Because you have to make people want to change. And yeah, because, why? Because you have to make people want to change and you say, okay, so there's the wants and there's the needs. I mean, the goal is to make people realize that they need to change. But you have to start it with they want to change first. Like maybe you heard a lot of things, a lot of memes coming in, like people want to change but they don't want to be changed 100%. Yeah, but when they realize they need the change and the change comes from within. So that's where my marketing background comes in. And to make that, you have to make them realize there's an added value in changing. And that's where my industrial engineer's background comes in. So it's complementary, what with the process and you I think we have in our communities, like the Lean Master, everything else, because you make them realize there's something, there's an added value with changing the process, improve the process, and that's where it comes in.

Speaker 2: 8:57

Let's combine together and then I join in and then, truthfully, after working there, two years of change management, mostly system implementations I realized not realized actually I want to try as a marketer again. So I get into business development. Yeah, but again in 2008 hits, and then it happens the globalizations at the time, 2008, I think. And then so I quit as the business development at that time, the area for agribusiness and I go back again change management, but business development at that time, the area for agribusiness.

Speaker 2: 9:25

And I go back again change management, but under HR at the time, previously under IT, and it's under HR, and at the time I think like, like they say, the rest is history. So I go deep into HR area, hr space, yeah, until now. So I go both, like let me say, wait, you're HR, so you change management, so you change management, so you definitely HR, no, change management. I think it's like they have a lot of how do you say, common practice with HR, but it's not HR. I think it's also it's process, it's everything else. So I'm both HR and change management, yeah, so that's a little bit story there.

Speaker 1: 10:00

That's amazing. So a few things that stood out. You started in engineering, got into marketing and then got into change management, and then, within change management, you went to IT, hr, which I think for the practical person to say what in the world Like, why would you? How does that even work? But I completely understand, and so I want to share an observation and I'd like to know what you think about it. I know a lot of people that are in change management with an engineering background and they struggle to get people excited about the change or the way they go about deploying the change makes the change happen, but as soon as they leave, it falls apart. What are your thoughts there?

Speaker 2: 10:48

Okay. So I'm really glad to bring up these topics because it's like two of the five best questions in change management, Like how to make people excited for the change. That's the first one. The second one like how to make it sustainable, and okay, so the first one, how to make them excited.

Speaker 2: 11:05

It's always come back to the classic part I think it started by the movement by Simon Sinek that he was saying that start with why. Right, Start with the why. But there's a catch on that when you start with the why, you sometimes negate the purpose of managing change. So in change management, you are managing change. We are not changing the management, like some of the common misperceptions. That's a big difference. That's a big difference, but unfortunately, some of my clients are thinking that way, so I try to make them straight.

Speaker 2: 11:39

So it's managing change, but by doing that, you have to focus on the how. You can start with the why. You can start with the why. You can know about the what, but change management you put your effort into the how. Oof. Yes, sir. So this is something that when I saw many change practitioners coming in and even in consulting areas so they are too focused on the what and the why they forgot that you're not your job, actually You're. How do you say you can't have an added value in this kind of project and this kind of change initiative if you tell the project team and then the stakeholders the how part, Because the what, sometimes the what is already being decided?

Speaker 1: 12:22

Yeah, it's already decided.

Speaker 2: 12:24

Like, why are you coming in? I'm going to change management? Oh, because I'm contacted here or I'm needed here because you already want to change something. That's the what. It's already decided. And then the why. To go to the what. Sometimes you have to go, I believe, like you have to do like these valuations and then the feasibility studies. If you're going into the project with project, is it worth it that I'm doing this project? So that's the why. Okay, you have to know the why for sure, because you're going to need that to trigger it, the needs in people or the wants in people. And you are for sure you have to know the what.

Speaker 2: 12:57

If not, you don't have any kind of basis, baseline to create your transformation process, but the how, how. Now that's the challenge there, when you started to create the how and then work around that the how as a core, with the people-centric in mind and being supported. Like you said, being an engineer, it gives you a very important leading edge in competency in your trade as an engineer. We engineers are practical beings, right? Yes, you're looking at some things, like you're looking at machines. You're looking at drawings.

Speaker 2: 13:31

Sometimes you don't know, like, hey, who's drawing this? Or like how these drawings come to be, or how these machines are designed. Sometimes you only think like how are they working? What are they resulting? Right, as an engineer, so that's how I was being built as an engineer, so that has given me the leading edge, like when designing this change. That gives me the purpose of the process itself, what it will deliver, what are the results of the process. So that's my second why you have the, why the change initiative, why you have to change but you have the results or the goals why you have to change, but you have the results or the goals why you design these processes.

Speaker 2: 14:06

Now that's the thing that you have to bring to the stakeholders and give them the information that, okay, these are the values that you will get if you go to these processes. This process won't be easy. Sometimes you have to balance the good and the bad. Otherwise sometimes you oh you can, after this change, like you can't have shortened process time, shortened SLA that's good, but there's a but in there. But you have to experience these painful things first.

Speaker 1: 14:34

You have to learn new things.

Speaker 2: 14:36

You have to learn being uncomfortable. You have to go or stretch your comfort zones. How? Now that's where change management comes in. So I think that's one thing that your first questions like change management focus the effort on the how and how. That how can result in added failure on the whole change process and you have to communicate that failures from the how part to the stakeholders. That's one of the, for me, the critical things how to make the stakeholders be excited about the change. Okay.

Speaker 2: 15:07

So that's the first one, the first one and the second one. I forgot the second one. The second question Good stopping point. Maybe I'll come back to you.

Speaker 1: 15:15

So the one thing when you said, like the why and the what, the what's already figured out. If what's already figured out, if they didn't know what, they wouldn't call me For my clients. They've already decided we want to do this thing. Help us do this thing. Awesome, what's all why? I don't appreciate the amount of energy that people talk about. You got to share the why Because it's not that complicated. I mean, maybe I'm under, maybe I just don't understand it, maybe I just don't understand it. But it's like if all you do is tell me you give me these promises of how we're going to have better outcomes and our clients are going to be satisfied and work-life balance is like, wow, wow, wow, whatever, show me I understand. Okay, what's the why? We want to improve cycle time so that we can get more market share. That's really why the how Like nobody talks about the how.

Speaker 1: 16:11

Albert and, I hope, l&m family members out there, all you change folks like we are not focusing enough time on the how, and so I'm doing some online training with a group of electricians and one of the guys he's a superintendent. Online training with a group of electricians and one of the guys he's a superintendent. He said it like we were figuring out. How do you study, work and break it down and analyze it and redesign it? And he was beautiful. He's like you know what, jess?

Speaker 1: 16:35

I just realized part of our problem, like our production problem with our guys, and what's causing like the friction in terms of relationships, is we have the what, we got to install the thing and we know why, so we can keep our jobs and make budget, but we have never talked about the how to do that work, to hit the what and meet the why. You didn't say those exact words, but when you said, I'm like, oh my God, there's a fundamental concept there that I think a lot of people are missing. And so I mentioned at the top of the conversation that I recognize you to be a very people-centered leader, a change leader at that. What's the relationship? How did you develop that people, the appreciation for people, and connect that to the how, or is it even connected?

Speaker 2: 17:27

Okay. So it comes back again with remember when I mentioned about my first passion in marketing, in career right. So it turns out that after almost a decade I'm doing the marketing and the switch to HR. I'm doing the marketing and the switch to HR. I then realized that one silver linings on those two roles to careers actually people. You try to find out the pain points of your customers, your customer journey, everything else. Then in HR you're also trying to find the pain points for your employees. Those are the people, they are your internal customers.

Speaker 2: 18:04

So I think, because of that then, why I mentioned the more people centric I mean, for sure, the PPT for an industrial engineer is like the bibles, like the power, the people process, technology, right, but people for me comes first, because I think those two kind of backgrounds and then those two kind of patients in my career journey and how do you link it to the how it actually comes from, when you know about what can you do to have a value added for these people, you know that, being people-centric, you have to become like, not become. You have to stretch your empathy. You have to walk yeah, you have to walk in their shoes like a couple of miles you have to walk yeah, you have to walk in their shoes like a couple of miles. You know how their journey is. You know how their experience challenges in their journey.

Speaker 2: 18:51

As simple as when you design, I think, coming into the banks and then coming into the office, like I design employee experience, and then when one of the clients said, oh, we already have employee experience, we already have employee journeys, I mean, take a look, when I saw the journey, I said asking did you map the employee's journey when they're commuting to work to your office? It's never there. It's never there. The journey is always starting when you become a candidate, you are recruited and then from hire to retire in HR. But when workers already come in, did you map the journey in commuting? I mean, maybe you heard that Jakarta is like what sometimes the expatriates are calling the biggest parking spot in Southeast Asia.

Speaker 2: 19:37

Because most of the roads are becoming parking spots most of the time.

Speaker 2: 19:41

So your car is just stuck there and yeah, it's happening, so the commuting is a challenge. So by knowing that, by working in their shoes, and then you as the change leader or change management, or even as a consultant, or like the third party coming in, or even as the hr leaders, the companies, then you might know what needs to be done. So you, I think, if you heard about the these two circles, like the circle of concerns and the circle of influence, so this circle, if influence, is something that you can influence, like the circle of concerns and the circle of influence, so this circle of influence is something that you can influence, but the circle of concern is something that you are trying but you cannot. So you try to widen your circle of influence. So, after knowing that, and you know what are the things that you can influence to reduce or to eliminate the pain points of these people, and then how, again, how to make that happen, that's where you become people-centric. That's why you relate it to the how of them.

Speaker 2: 20:36

Yeah, for me that's the thing. Then, if you can track that, then you have, I would say, the added value. You're saying that, okay, so I can reduce the commute, I can help you with the commute, you as employees. I can add maybe one or two buses employee bus to have the pickup points and then the delivery points, right Pulling station or something there near the employees. But you're going to need, like a true again true feasibility studies with analytics or data and everything else when are most employee livings, what are the pockets of the employees and where you can put the bus? Everything else right.

Speaker 2: 21:14

But then you have to justify how is it getting to added value for the people and the companies, for the people for sure, yeah, mutual people for sure, they're going like, okay, I don't have to bring my own car, I just have to park here and then just go there, and then I can go directly with public transport to the pool, and then I just like sit in the bus and I arrive in my office. That's the baseline. But for the company it's like, oh, we have to go with more budget, everything else. But if you end up as an HR, you can prove, or as a change management, you can prove, by these processes, by how you're going to calculate them, then you get okay, you will have to invest like maybe several thousand dollars in the first year, but in the next couple of years you will save this.

Speaker 2: 21:59

How much? Why? Because people are not resigning, right. People are staying, yep. People are not taking more PTOs or sick leave Yep, but it's a long run. People are not taking more PTOs or sick leave Yep, yep, but it's a long run.

Speaker 1: 22:11

It's a long game. It's a long game, man.

Speaker 2: 22:13

That's where you mentioned about sustainability. That's it, desi. That's the sustainability part, yeah.

Speaker 1: 22:18

Oh man, albert, God, this is so good. So one thing I want to hammer on folks if you missed it, go back rewind. Probably I don't know three, six minutes, somewhere around there. You like spelled out the formula of what I'm going to call a transactional leader, because I used to be and sometimes I still am. But don't tell anybody.

Speaker 2: 22:39

Yeah, but it's nothing better than that. It's nothing better than that Right.

Speaker 1: 22:42

But if you want to transition to like a transformational leader, a more people-centered, focused leader you just spelled out like a system or a process to achieve that, to like practice and build those skills of understanding the people's journey I think you called it stretching your empathy it's totally actionable, or rather it can be tactical. You just got to practice it and do that. Now, as you were talking, there was something that was kind of like jumping around in my head and it's something that I've been able to witness in like a small number of the leaders that I've worked with. Their vision, or maybe I'll call it their organizational or professional patience are very small, and so what that means is the way it plays itself out is when there is an opportunity for a real, impactful, meaningful change because the measuring stick is longer than normal, they're against it. If it takes longer than 60 days to withdraw that ROI, they are against it. Do you see that?

Speaker 2: 24:34

Many times, many times, if I cannot say all the times, I have to say many times, I mean happens even, okay, even, maybe, as you, as the entrepreneur also, or the owner of the business, I mean like you cannot stop thinking like show me the money first, sure, yeah, so there's nothing wrong with that, that's totally fine, because sometimes the bottom line, or the P&L profit and loss is the one thing that we're trying to maximize or optimize. But remember when we discussed about how people get excited for change, yes, and that's what we're talking about people. But when we're saying that how to make leaders and business owners excited for change, yes, when you're saying that they're looking for less than 60 days, it's totally normal. And what I did? I actually created these two, what we call the quick wins and the long ones.

Speaker 2: 25:24

Yes, so the quick wins mostly, and I divided the wins the quick ones and the long ones, actually also in several categories. This is quantifiable, this is tangible, but this one is more qualitative. Or it's intangible right, but the intangible ones or the quantitative ones could be tangible or quantitative in the long run, but for now, if you're looking for the quantitative or tangible ones in the short wins or the quick wins, these are the things. It might not be as much right in the long run, but this could happen. So, okay, for example, I was involved in a project.

Speaker 2: 26:02

It seems simple, but sometimes it's like a payroll automation project. We call it the e-payslip. So in my country I think, like even now, sometimes you receive the pay slip in hard copy. You receive the pay slip and then it's like an envelope, everything else, and then we decided like and all the documents in the back office for the pay slip is still in the hard copy, you have to print out, and then you have the copy of them, the ones that you keep in the HR and the ones that you give to the employees, and then trying as simple as that. So when you try to move to the e-pay slips or the automations, the resistance is truly coming from the employees.

Speaker 2: 26:42

As simple as this, like, hey, albert, I don't want to have an e-pay slip. Why? Because at one point, I like to see something in my hand when I have my payday. Okay, so it happens. I mean, like people see something in my hand when I have my payday Okay, so it happens. I mean, like people see, if I cannot see the cash, I can see something. The number, yeah, but you can't Right here. Oh man, yeah, okay. So you have to understand what I'm getting at, right.

Speaker 1: 27:07

Well, let me explain, because I remember this was probably 15 years ago, the company I was working for. We made the transition from paper to digital checks and they were really great about how they handled most of the change not all of it, but most of it and so it happened over a three-year period. They said hey, you have an option. You can get hard copy, you can get digital and you could choose. So for a whole year we could choose After year one. Whole year we had we could choose after year one, and we knew this upfront. They said year two we're going to transition everybody over to digital. Some of us still fought. I was one of like, no, no, I still want my paper. And so they were patient with us.

Speaker 1: 27:46

They got you know the majority over, and then year three they said okay, if you still want your paper check, you're going to have to sign this thing and you're going to pay. It was like it wasn't a lot of money, like 60 cents a week to continue getting your check or whatever it was. And for me I was like, well, okay, give me the stupid digital thing. I don't want you to take my 60 cents, anyways. But like you know, they were patient with us.

Speaker 1: 28:15

So since we'll just say 15 years now, I've been getting well, we'll say 12. I've been getting all my pay digitally, direct deposit. I don't get any paper. Well then I start my business. I start my business about 20 months ago and not everybody has a smooth process for me to do the digital payment and it's easier because, anyways, for a lot of reasons we're just doing I get a check in the mail and I remember the very first time I got my check as my own business owner, I was like man, this is awesome, that's why I have this thing. Yeah, I mean okay.

Speaker 2: 28:43

Again, it's justified. Like me, in the books, I steal the hard copy books compared to digital ones. So I understand the feelings. But now I have to manage the change. How make people want to accept it? Right, it's transition.

Speaker 2: 28:57

Yes, so at the first couple of months we still have them, oh, you can still print out the for you and everything else. But in the next I think after next three months like, okay, like you said, if you want to print it you have to ask approval from your boss. So we just make them a little bit difficult. It's a kind of behavior engineering kind of thing, right, but anyway, so we're talking about the quick wins, right? So the quick wins, that is actually tangible. We like literally counting the cost of the paper, the ones that we use to print, yes, and it's not that much. It only comes to like several hundred dollars per year for the paper.

Speaker 2: 29:38

But then I say, okay, this is not going to convince the leaders. So we go back again and I try to find something else. And I found out that they are keeping all of this copy of the payslips. Because, again, found out that they are keeping all of this copy of the payslips? Because, again, I think in ISO standardization you have to keep documents at least 10 years before you can burn them. They actually have storage units somewhere in the warehouse, so I just like going to the storage unit and wait. This is like how many square meters the space. Can you imagine that if we can like clear out like most of this, like 90% of this, and we can rent out the space to the new tenants in the office? So that's the thing right.

Speaker 2: 30:25

And then I just calculated, even though they're not going to clear out the space at that year. But I can show them the failure edit of this change, the quick wins, right. But I say, okay, this is the how that you can gain the failure edit. But if you don't want to do it, it's your choice. For me, I already showed you how right and I show you. So it's like the small, the incremental improvements or the cost savings, right, and then for that, and then for the storage units, everything else, and then, like, if you rent it to the new tenants, the space is possible. So I researched the price, the market price for the space renting everything else. I put it in calculation, something like that. The market price, yeah, it comes like quite okay, I mean like a couple thousands per year. So, yeah, when they saw it, oh, okay, this is actually workable, it's really feasible, so, yeah, so that's one of the same. Show them the quick wins first.

Speaker 2: 31:23

But there's one thing that I want the change management professional, or like the change leader out there, one thing manage their expectations. Yeah, don't ever say that, oh for sure, you're going to get this kind of money. No, this way, if you do this, you can get this kind of money. But if you're only doing it consistently and then you're tracking it consistently, you might get this kind of money, yeah. So again showing the short ones, the quick ones and the long ones, but Again, showing the short ones, the quick ones and the long ones, but just manage the expectations. So yeah, when you're saying that, okay, how you make people excited about change, that's one thing, but you have to manage the expectation also after they get excited.

Speaker 1: 32:05

Yes, yeah. So, albert, a few things I want to summarize which I think will help a lot of our people out. There is you have. I think it's our responsibility it's what you're saying is, as the change leader, the man, the leader of the change. Part of our responsibility is to show, find the quick wins that will engage people that need quick wins and that's the foundation for the long-term investment to make that change deployable and sustainable. Huge, huge, huge. And then managing expectation, like I'll say it this way when I first got into continuous improvement, I saw my job as the I'll say it was really more of an auditor, which means I would come and evaluate all the waste and make a list of all the improvement opportunities and then I would give it to you and say here you should do these things. Okay, got it.

Speaker 2: 33:01

And guess what?

Speaker 1: 33:01

happened Nothing. Nobody wanted it, because every time I showed up, you're like oh man.

Speaker 2: 33:06

Like I told you, nobody wants to change. I want to change, but I don't want to be changed.

Speaker 1: 33:10

A hundred percent. And so now I've evolved, or grown a little bit, because I got tired of people not liking me, not being invited to lunch, you know it sucked.

Speaker 2: 33:19

Nobody wanted me around. I thought it was like the public enemy. Yeah, I got it.

Speaker 1: 33:22

Yeah, I was like, oh, here he comes. So now it's like, okay, I'm going to help the change and I'm going to apply energy and effort and get in there. So, for example, using your example, we find this, all this square footage where there's boxes and boxes of paper, of storage of five. Well, I can, let's go, I'll, let me grab a box, you grab a box and let's get them out of here. So, my, the way I frame that is investing some sweat equity in the change and, to reinforce what you said, it's also painting the picture Like this is the map. These are the things that we can do, that you can do to get this improved, this short-term improvement and the long-term improvement. But, as the change leaders, when we do that, the results are better. Managing expectations like, hey, yes, we can get, you know, we can start renting out, leasing out that extra space. It's going to take work to do that.

Speaker 1: 34:19

It's going to take effort to do that Like that's totally I mean OG level stuff. Albert, now you also, you said something that change management is about managing change, not changing management. Now, so my philosophy, in the way I approach change management, my focus, is always to help the leaders that I'm working with augment or adjust the way they manage. For some of them it's a dramatic, it's not an adjustment, it's a kick in the face. For others it's like a minor adjustment, right and everything in between. So what are your thoughts on the benefits of changing management styles?

Speaker 2: 35:05

okay, so first of all, I have to say that I really like the that you created this sweat equity right.

Speaker 1: 35:12

I hope, I hope you trademark it One of my classes, one of the classes I teach. It's called sweat equity improvement. Yeah, yeah, I mean that's awesome man.

Speaker 2: 35:20

That's awesome, I mean. Yeah, because this is related actually to the ones that you're asking about, the sweat equity, right. So it's actually like doing and then becoming the role model, actually doing the change itself and then showing them that the improvement is there if you just do it. But it's not always rainbow and roses. Sometimes you have to, yeah, and you have to come to sweat and bleed if you want to become. You have to achieve the why. Again, you have to do the how. That's where you manage the expectation. I really like that when.

Speaker 2: 35:49

But when it comes to the leaders or leadership styles, yeah, how you change the leadership styles, I mean, I've been there and also experienced helping others to change their leadership styles. But before going there, I just want to make a note that change has several facets of change on the impact scale. Like a minor change to you might be a big change for others. Vice versa. This is something you have to take notes.

Speaker 2: 36:15

So, by changing the management style, like maybe okay, like for me, if I become a leader, I'm more of an introvert than extrovert, if I can say that, like the percentage, I'm trying to become an ambivert now but still more strong in the introvert part and to become a leader who's outspoken, and then to become more directive leader sometimes might not work well for me and then but the ones that are saying that, oh, you can change your style easily, you just have to, like, give them a pat on the shoulder and then have the one-on-one with them, like, and then walk around like a genba walk, everything else, like, yeah, I know that's very good, I realized that I had some edifice, but it's like you know burning me out doing that kind of things. You know dealing with people.

Speaker 2: 36:57

I was like, yeah, so, but I still have to do that. And then for you, the ones that I mean not you, but well, you, I think you're an extrovert, you connect people easily. I mean like I totally kudos to that. And then when I saying that, they were saying that, yeah, but it's easy, it doesn't take like an hour of your time, I know it. For you it's easy, but for me, after I do all of those things, I'm done, I have to recharge my battery. So that's why I would say what are the things that you have to consider when you're thinking about changing the management or changing the management style? Not just the style, but the people themselves. So first you have to know the impact. Is it something? Again, is it something worth it that, if you change the management style, what are the added values that you can gain from changing that? Rather, if you cannot change the management style, can you augment it with the leaders or the future leaders around that?

Speaker 2: 37:59

This is something that sometimes people forget. I distinctly remember that when you're posting about asking for help for other people. I think I forgot I heard it from your show with Jen or, I think, in your post the failure of asking for help and it's something that, for me personally, I need to learn because I used to become a specialist, I used to become this, doing all my thing, and then suddenly, working in the ecosystem, I realized I'm not alone. I become a leader. I'm not alone. I have to have someone to complement me. Everything else, and sometimes it works, sometimes it's not, but mostly it works. That's one thing, that's the first one Realizing that you're in the ecosystems, you as a leader, you're not alone. Changing your leadership style might work, it might be feasible, but might not. You have to know the impact. The second is you have to know the scope. Yeah, I mean you want to change it, but how much you want to change? I mean it's kind of just like okay, because you're saying that you have the cognitive improvement one, and then I'm more I totally into continuous improvements. But now we're talking about transformations. It's two different things, right, transformations. Both have the biggest scope of impact. The continuous improvement is like you're trying to find the incremental part and becoming big with the incremental one, but these two is aligning.

Speaker 2: 39:14

So when you become you want to change your leadership styles or you change the management styles, you have to know like are you doing it incrementally or you're doing it, like I say, quantumly. Why are you? Where are you going to start? Are you going to start like coming into your office patting everyone in the back, saying like, hey, good morning people, who knows me from day one? And then they say like, oh, you're a little bit like a loose, like you're kind of snobbishbish. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be that, but I I have like a challenge for me to open conversation first, everything, something like that.

Speaker 2: 39:49

Yeah, yep, so that's why I I try, but when I try to change a little bit the improvement part, like to become saying hello first or smiling first, yeah, that's for me changing my quote, unquote, my working or my management styles. But do I like going out and it's like, hey, everybody, let's go have a party after the office party? That's like doing the transformation part, the B-clip part, and it might not get there in like one year Again, step by step. So I think those two things. And you're saying when you're asking like, okay, so what are my thoughts on the changing the management style or leadership styles? Yeah, I think so first you have to know what are the impacts they're bringing in by changing that and what is scope. Where do you want to start first with those two?

Speaker 1: 40:34

things. Yeah, oh, you know I've been irresponsible and I love it. You gave me another layer to think through Me interacting with people. It does take energy from me, but not as much as me. Having to keep my mouth shut Me, trying to stay quiet, is more exhausting than it is for leaders that aren't engaging with the people, and I never considered that maybe that type of engagement is an exhausting situation for them. So, yeah, folks, all my people out there, I'm sorry, I'm going to do better, I promise.

Speaker 1: 41:17

But I think the question, like the way to frame it, the way I'm going to frame it going forward, is like what's the impact? And you said it what's the impact? What's the scope? Yeah, how much of a draw, because all change takes energy, true Period.

Speaker 1: 41:32

And I'll also add, all change is disruptive, even though we're trying to make things better in the short term, when we're making the adjustments, it sucks, it's hard, it's uncomfortable, it's new, we're messing it up, we don't have a command, we don't have expertise on it. Eventually we will, but when we're talking about leadership style or we'll say engagement styles to be more engaging, where I'm not taking into account how much energy it takes for that human being to stretch their comfort zone, because it really is a comfort zone thing. So bad on me, that was not good, I'll do better. So I heard you talk about the digital transformation ecosystem yeah, and it really resonated with me, but I'm not smart enough to repeat anything you said. So can you help us? Can you paint a picture of what that is and how it frames your approach?

Speaker 2: 42:31

Okay, so okay, when I talk about the ecosystems I touched a little bit previously, when I talk about the support systems around you, that's part of the ecosystem. But let's define the ecosystem between internally and externally ecosystems Like internally, it's like internal, your organizations or external organizations, even organizations, but individual, and you experience your own transformation in digital. So, internally, you have to be aware that your ecosystems digital is not technology, it's too different. Yeah, I'm so glad.

Speaker 2: 43:04

Yeah, yeah, I mean I think thankfully most people are currently realizing that but digital is more into your mindset, your behavior, again, people's lives. So these ecosystems, like I'm saying, if you're talking about individually, then you're talking about the head, the heart and the hands. The head is the mindsets, the heart is your emotions, your feelings, and the hands is your skills, it's your transit organizations. Then you know the, the knowledge, skills and attitude, the case becoming competencies. So that's your part of the ecosystem, internally, saying that knowing that you have these three parts you have to work on before you said, oh, I am becoming digital, digital what? Okay, that's one thing, because the mindset of digital people like saying that okay.

Speaker 2: 43:53

Example in my country, most of the culture, when saying that you have to fail fast so you can get fast again, it's, it's a taboo JC. Mostly it's taboo. People say no, albert, no, I want to show that I'm failing to my super years, yes, but if you don't know you're failing after you spend like one year in a project, then you've actually the project is not the ones that success in your eyes of a super year, then you already spent one year in the project, for example, something like that, so yeah that's the ecosystem part.

Speaker 2: 44:25

I mean the ecosystem for the internal part, right, and the competency. So you will know what kind of these three areas that you need to build in your ecosystems. And to do that, you need the infrastructure around it, you need the knowledge management, you need the ERP systems, everything. Now that's where we talk about the support system and the technology what kind of technology going to need. So that's one part of the ecosystem. The other ecosystem is actually maybe the external part, maybe your vendors, right, your suppliers. They are your ecosystem. Why? Because you are saying to your vendors hey, I want to become more digital. My company is going into digital provisions, so I want to become in more digital way of working. By what? I want to become more collaborative with you.

Speaker 2: 45:11

So when you design your spare parts, everything else, we can design it together. If they're saying, yes, we already have an NDA, so it's confidential, you cannot design together, you cannot work with us. You just have to receive what we have. If you don't want, you can find another supplier for it. Example something like that. So you cannot become truly digital if you don't have this collaboration part, because it's one part of becoming digital to become collaborative and again like failing fast. So when you have material suppliers, sometimes you need to do the QC right. You have to ask them like give me some samples so I can try in the machines or I can try to build something for my clients. But I do some samples first. But when they're saying as simple as it, okay, but to do this sample or for me it's consulting or POCs right, you have to pay something like a down payment or deposit first.

Speaker 1: 46:03

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 46:04

Sometimes happens, right, yes, so it's a chicken and that kind of things and like, how can I become digital if you don't want to have collaboration with me and you're not like taking like this is like the failing fast principle, so if I cannot use, you actually can't have a time to build a better spare part so I can buy it from you. But sometimes if they're not there, they can't buy it. So this is the ecosystem outside vendor details and your customers. I hate to say that, okay, one of the things that digital's way of working is something like iteration, something like that. So you give them the minimum viable products or the sample first for them to try out again, and then after that you receive the feedback and you develop again. But then your customer is saying that, oh, sorry, we're not doing that. I want to receive the 100 perfect products by you all the time. Yeah, but we're trying to make this more added value for you. So we're trying to design together with you Say, oh no, I hired you because I want the finished product done. It's not wrong, it's not, it's happening. So that's why I told it.

Speaker 2: 47:08

It's ecosystem when you're trying, oh, it's truly digital in what way? You know, there's like a word like a company for like, oh, you have like the number one digital transformations happening in your company, so you get this award. When I'm discussing about these awards, I say, oh, so it's an award for corporate, yes, but actually the ones that are receiving it mostly come from the HR. So what you're saying is for company, right, so it's all your processes, or most of your functions at 80%, are doing digital transformations. It's not only for your HR, yeah, but it's like the ones that are being interviewed and it's only because our HR project, again, for technology, the new technology, the new system, I said, yeah, but digital is not only technology. Yeah, but that's not what they said. We got the word so, yeah, so those are the things I mean.

Speaker 2: 47:56

Ecosystem again. Why I told them ecosystem? Because when you want to transform something, even digital, analog, everything, transformation you have to think about all these moving parts, not only the organizations, but all. I read the ones. I think that a couple of years ago, when you and Jennifer first started the podcast, you mentioned the term ripple of impact. Right, I really like that because I use that a lot when I cook. You have to think about the ripple of impact. So the ripple of impact? What kind of ecosystem you want to build?

Speaker 1: 48:27

That's the short answer. Yeah, that was Jennifer's thing. My understanding around it has grown in that everything I do has ripples of impact. Whether I'm doing it on purpose or not, it's still having impact. So there's a responsibility, just as a human being.

Speaker 1: 48:44

And what I love about the way you frame the ecosystem is you started with heart, hands and mind. So that's the epicenter, then the organization, the systems, et cetera within the organization, then the vendors, then the client. That's the ecosystem and everybody needs to. Rather, when everybody wins in that ecosystem, the change sticks.

Speaker 1: 49:12

However, I think a lot of us make the mistake of only focusing on one of the stakeholders in the ecosystem and then everybody else just needs to bend and conform to serve the one which, okay, that's going to probably drive revenue and maybe profits for a period of time, and then you end up having turnover or safety issues or vendors going out of business, like your ecosystem starts to die. Yeah, so, man, amazing, albert, it kind of gets me, makes me feel special that you've been watching the live streams of no BS with Jen and Jess and the 5S lovers. Like that's amazing to me, it's an amazing world. I mean, like that's amazing to me, it's an amazing world. I mean, you and I connected on LinkedIn, if I think back five years ago I was not like on social media except for Facebook, to send stupid things to my friends, and now we're building relationships, building a business off of it. It's so, so amazing.

Speaker 2: 50:18

So I want to bring the closing question, albert is what is the promise you are intended to be? Can I make it a homework for that? No, no, okay. Actually, this is something that I again that I've been thinking, since I'm reading and then watching your podcast and your shows, that becoming the promise that I tend to be. I was thinking of that. Okay, so I'm promising myself I can become that person that can add some critical failures for others without compromising my principles. So I think that's one. Can we have more than one promise?

Speaker 1: 51:04

But that's one promise yeah, absolutely yes, yes.

Speaker 2: 51:06

I've been thinking, I've been thinking like, since I'm watching you doing this session, everything else with the promise that you can be. So, yeah, I think that's one promise that for me, that since I started in the HR world as a space that I'm trying to do, that that's pretty deep and so like, when you think about it, what would that look like for somebody?

Speaker 2: 51:26

It's as simple like maybe you notice that recently more open about my me becoming a coach or mentors for the new graduates, everything like that. So as simple as that. Like I've been as a lecturer in the university but when you mentor someone on one and you see that person is the new graduates, it's like, oh, I'm getting this job. And then they're giving a testimonial or something like oh, thank you, sir, I'm getting this job because you showed me how to do the interviews. And what are these industries?

Speaker 2: 51:57

It's like, oh wow, I mean I'm actually fulfilling a small points of the promises to me. I'm giving something of a critical value, not only a value, but a critical value for this person. They're really going into the first time, into their careers, their office, which I hope doesn't mess them up much. Yeah, I mean, this is yeah. So that's for me, from the small point of view, that what it looked like for me yeah, oh, that's so amazing.

Speaker 1: 52:26

I love it. Albert, anybody you want to shout out wow?

Speaker 2: 52:30

there's a lot like, for sure, shout out to your communities, and then the four j's I mentioned, the starts, and then also the linking community, my networks and I think most, not most, all of my juniors, my mentees and my team, that I have to say I can show you or mentor you about what are the best ways to do something, but I prefer that you learn from me about the things that I did, some of the things that I did, and learn not how to do that. Yes, I think that words you know add more failures to your learning from my mistakes. Yes, oh, I love it Albert.