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Learnings and Missteps
The Learnings and Missteps Podcast is about unconventional roads to success and the life lessons learned along the way.
You will find a library of interviews packed with actionable take aways that you can apply as you progress on your career path.
Through these interviews you will learn about the buttons you can push to be a better leader, launch a business, and build your influence.
Find yourself in their stories and know that your path is still ahead of you.
Learnings and Missteps
No More Mediocre Leadership: Wally Adamchick’s Blueprint for Better Teams
n this episode, Jesse discusses the critical role of servant leadership in the construction industry with Wally Adamchick. They explore how a servant leadership mindset, which includes being respectful, setting expectations, and supporting employees, can lead to higher employee retention and profitability. Wally also talks about the importance of developing frontline leaders and the distinction between coaching, consulting, and training. The conversation touches on the specific challenges faced by subcontractors, the growing emphasis on mental health, and the new movement in the dirt world spearheaded by leaders like Aaron Witt. Throughout the episode, they emphasize the importance of contributing to others' growth and the personal fulfillment derived from it.
00:00 Introduction and Guest Overview
02:51 The Importance of Servant Leadership
05:16 Challenges and Misconceptions in Leadership
12:26 The Role of Coaching and Consulting
18:06 Expertise and Practical Experience
23:25 Focusing on Construction Leadership
35:37 Impact of Training on Operating Income and Quality of Life
36:14 Balancing Quality of Life and Profitability in Construction
37:28 Creating a Frontline Leadership Program
38:35 The Success Triangle: Technical Competence, Management, and Leadership
40:15 Challenges and Rewards of Leadership Development
42:55 The Importance of Contribution and Service
44:53 The Role of Culture in Employee Retention and Satisfaction
52:59 The Growing Movement in the Dirt World
57:58 People in Construction Report: Insights and Data
01:02:32 Closing Thoughts and Final Message
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Somebody says that's just the way I am, that's crap.
SPEAKER_02:What is going on, LM family? I got another one here. Somebody that I've been following. Actually, when I started following him, I thought he was like a theater major because there were different personalities of him showing up on the LinkedIn. And of course, all valuable stuff. And so I got further into Mr. Wally. And just so y'all know, he his gig, the work that he does, or maybe more appropriately, the contribution he's making to our industry and this world is transforming leaders. He helps companies retain talent, which we're going to dig into today, and also like deliver profits. So if anybody knows anything about profits or cares about profits, this isn't just touchy feely, let's train everybody and get along. It's always about business results. He's a speaker, he's a coach, he's a consultant, and a whole lot more. We're going to get to learn all about that, Mr. Wally Adam Chick. And before that, and if this is your first time here, you're listening to the Learnings and Missteps podcasts, where amazing human beings just like you tell us about how they share their gifts and talents to leave this world better than they found it. I am Jesse, your selfish servant, and we're about to get to know Mr. Wally. Mr. Wally, how are you doing, sir?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I'm good. I don't know if I'm as selfish as you are, but uh you know, we're we're here for the same reason is that uh well, we want to help people out. So yeah, it's all about me to help you.
SPEAKER_02:That's it, man. That's it. I it's uh you know, I get accused of being so altruistic. Like, man, Jess, you just give so much. I'm like, yeah, but it's not like I just give, I give because it's what keeps me alive, it's what keeps me sober, it's what keeps me sane. Provided I'm contributing, things are great. When I'm just on the take, things are not great. I am not healthy, and that's just a waste. And I mean, I know because I've lived it for way too long.
SPEAKER_00:Well, there's a deep message there about service and servant mentality, not you know, not rolling over and all of those things, but when we look at the neuroscience of this, when we're giving, and not stupid, you know, I'm selling all my how worldly possessions, but I have something I can give. I got a little bit of knowledge, and you know, maybe I deliver it in a way similar to you with Dept Builder. You know, maybe we deliver it in a way where people hear it. There's a lot of noise out there, but uh hopefully we're delivering something that's got some value for folks, and you know, yeah, that's why I wake up in the morning.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, sir. Okay, so you said serving mentality, and I think it I think we need to go a little deeper there because you know, I worked for a company, I worked for TD industries for over 17 years, and the culture now they had like an intentional culture this back in the early 2000s, right? Before everybody was talking about culture, I'm sure you've they they like started it in construction almost, and so now their culture was one of servant leadership, and I struggled early because I thought it meant like be nice and you know, just be a sweetheart, a big fluffy pillow. And it took me a little while to like, wait a minute, it's not just be nice, it's really be respectful, it's not just be pleasant and accommodating, it's set expectations and support people to get there. And if they can't get there, then there's other measures to be taken. So, in your work, when you think of this servant mentality, how often do you see people maybe overshoot into the soft tolerating mediocrity side, uh maybe confusing what service actually means?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you know, it's probably a bell curve, right? Where that's you know the standard distribution and however what whatever chunk you want to take of it. But I'd say easily 10 to 15 percent of the folks, the minute they hear it, uh, they hear nice. Yep. Uh, and then there's another 10 to 15 that hear like get run over. You know, and somewhere in the middle is the goodness. And and look, there's nothing wrong with being nice. There's nothing wrong with holding the door open for somebody when you see them at the mini mart. Yes. And we should do those things at work too. But this is how do I help you grow? Now do I help you get through the door? And that's where tough love may come in, too, by the way. Um, with accountability. Hey, dude, we've had this conversation three times. You're gonna have to go home today and think about this, you know. And so, yeah, when we hear servant, it could go back to some youth, some baggage, some mama's house issues, etc. But you know, what we're really talking about is an intentional collaboration to help you get better. One of my favorite quotes is the answer is yes. Now, what was the question? Right. So, yeah, let's figure out how we can do this.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Now, okay, so you mentioned tough love. Have you seen a change in the response or the willingness to receive tough love over your time in the work that you've done and the different roles that you serve because you've done a lot.
SPEAKER_00:You know, I want to say yes, but let me back up a little bit and you know, talk about what I, you know, the construction industry as I see it. Now, I think this is no science to this whatsoever, but you'll get it, and you're the listeners will get it. I would say, you know, two-thirds of the companies across this construction universe never want guys like you and me to show up because they're doing fine. Yes, you know, they're making money, they're keeping the lights on, and they're in the insanity or the ignorance, and it's fine. There's the TDs and folks like that who, you know, so what if I go with my two-thirds to three-quarters, you know, 20 to 30 percent of the industry is either exemplary, like they set the standard and they want to stay there, or they're aspirational and they want to get there. You know, I dare say I don't think I've ever changed the culture. I've helped people maintain the culture because a consultant is not going to come in and change your world, we're gonna help you change the world.
SPEAKER_02:Yes. And I'm saying again, yes, you know, yeah, it's one of my it took me a while, but like that first year, I had no idea what the hell I was doing. I still kind of don't, but I'm getting better at it. Anyways, the folks that reached out that were expecting a cultural transformation from a one-day pep rally training session. I said, sure, let's do it. Hell yeah, so did I. And then guess what? Like it didn't happen. They were pissed off at me, they were disappointed, and so I had to change the way I was looking and responding to things like like what you want. I maybe it can be done with the one-day pep rally. I don't know how to do the thing that you want with the one-day pep rally. So here is what I'm recommending, and or maybe you just need to find somebody that knows how to do it. What do you think about that?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, learning to say no, man. I said no to some stupid stuff. I mean, one of my favorites was time management on a Saturday. Like, yeah, yeah. So, hey, it's time management. Nobody wants that, nobody wants to be there on Saturday. And yeah, but look, anytime someone's starting a business, and whether you just bought a backhoe, you say yes to almost anything because of fear, no revenue, right? So fortunately, I've learned what to say yes to, and I've had clarity on what I don't do, and you still see this, you know, people broadly in our space, they do this and this and this and this. I'm like, you can't, you you can't do marketing and IT and you know culture, and but that's uh fire beware, I guess, and that's just part of the you know, the real world.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, well, and actually, great point. You've been in your business for way longer than I have. Like, how long does it take, or did you start off kind of poking around to figure out, okay, this that don't really work, that's not really what I like, to get super clear about what to like be the primary message, or did you know that right out of the gate?
SPEAKER_00:No, I don't think I knew it right out of the gate. Uh, I again, yeah, teaching time management and customer service and all of those things. I mean, I'm good in front of an audience, and I certainly have experience in those things, and I've been trained in some of those things, depending on where I was in my life, but that wasn't my expertise. Um, you know, and I it took me a while to acknowledge my experience and my expertise and then dive into it. And, you know, there's a part of me, and I see my buddies in the speaking world do this, and they're out making, you know, 50 grand an hour for giving their keynote. And I'm like, God, wouldn't that be great? Yeah, it would be, but that's not really who I am. I mean, I get in there and hook and jab with you. I'm on a job site at 6 a.m. God help me, I hate that, but you know, we start early in this industry. I'm a night person. But right, to get out there and go, hey, how's it going? What's going on? And I've spent more time on job sites in the last year, probably than in the last couple of years, COVID, et cetera. Because I wanted to get back in touch with what's going on out there, right? You and I lecture and we coach, and look, it's based on a lot of good stuff. But get back out in the dirt, talk to the crews, talk to the leaders. And when they say, Hey, I saw your video, or I loved what you did last week, or you know, here's why it worked for me, it's like, ding, yeah, that stuff is still working because the environment is changing. And go back to this servant thing we started with earlier. We never said lower the standard, right? The standard is still the standard, it's just that 20-year-old 20-year-old who just showed up on your job site, he's not gonna put up with the trash that you put up with, so or she's not gonna put up with the trash you put up with, right? So getting staying in touch requires, in my mind, expertise. So, yeah, those keynoters are wonderful and they perform a role, and I kind of envy them for the money they make, but you know, when the wife comes up to you at the Christmas party and looks at you and says, Are you Wally? And you're like, Yeah, and she throws her arms around you and says, I don't know what you did to him, but he's different.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, yes, you know, that's amazing because there was a time when the wife came up to me at the Christmas party and said, You're the SOB that keeps my man away from my kids and me on the weekends and holidays. And I was like, I was that guy, right? When I was out running work, we we got a job to do.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, yeah. There's I got too many stories there. It's interesting because in my head, when I'm having those types of conversations, right, about family and self-care and these sort sorts of things. I believe it 100%, and I'm working like hell to practice it, to like to be a practitioner of it, not just a freaking mouth noiser about it. But I also know how I would naturally react if I was in their situation, it would be easy. We got work to do if we don't do the work, but it's a it's an unsustainable model. So comparing that to having you know a family member come up and say, Hey man, thank you, because whatever you're doing, it's changed our relationship entirely. That is the beautiful thing. So now, you know, you mentioned keynote speakers making 50k per engagement, which is I'm with you, like damn it, man, that's awesome. Now, you in your on your profile, you list the word coach and consultant, and you talked about how us as consultants can go into a business, but we're not going to transform and sustain your culture. Is there a difference between coaching and consulting and that sort of thing? Do you use it in it? How do you think about the coach consultant idea?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, there's a lot of confusion out there, and what I'll tell you is my opinion, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, to me, coaching is more one-on-one, helping you get better at something. Now, the problem with the word coach is we automatically take it to the sports world. Yeah, and you know, that's a little bit different. And I guess we could be doing group coaching as well. But to me, consulting is organizational. Like, okay, you want to create a program, you want to develop your leaders. Here's a way to do that, just you know, just the way any other consultant would. We have some level of expertise. You could have that expertise in the house, but it's expensive to have it there. You don't need it, you know, at 365. So yeah, you bring a consultant in, they they charge you a little bit more than you know what an hourly rate would be, but they have that and it's organizational. The coaching is more than one-on-one. And then, you know, is training a separate word, and it probably is, yes, right. And that's where we're standing in front of you know 10, 20 people, 25, and delivering content. Now, this is where and you started earlier to talking about profit and making money. It all has to make sense and it all has to have a return on investment. So so whether it's training, coaching, consulting, whatever, if it doesn't work, you should fire the person. Um and but that's an admission of something going wrong. But ultimately, when we're talking organizational change and individual change, it requires all of these things, probably, right? We have to have an organizational view of what do we want to accomplish. We have to give skills to the, you know, a population of, you know, say frontline leaders who are trying to learn leadership. And then there may or may not be some specific one-on-one coaching in there to say, hey, you know, you're the general superintendent, you're kind of the linchpin on this. Let's spend some time together. So it really is a design build approach. Yes. Uh, when we put something together, you have to understand context, right? National, local, regional, self-performed, not so like all of these things are relevant to get maximum ROI. And it's why when we go back to the conversation about expertise earlier, like we have to understand that that playing field, so to speak. It's like we don't bring high school solutions into division one, right? Plistic, they don't work. And it's why you would never hear you or me say cement mixer. They don't exist, right? It's a ready mix truck. But we've all seen that speaker come in and try to make that connection, and it's like, yeah, no. And ultimately, it's not that they're looking in uninformed, it's that it's disrespectful to the audience, yes, to these, to these trades people and builders who they just want life to be a little bit better, but don't want isn't that what we all want?
SPEAKER_02:We're gonna do the LM Family Member shout-out. This one goes out to long time supporter Miss Kirby Coates. She says, There are not enough words to share about the depth builder experience. Jesse built programs based on real people and real experiences to better people in real life. He has a true passion to help all people, and it shows through every program he has created, jump in and grow. So, Kirby, thank you. Super, super thank you for leaving that very thoughtful review on the Google. I'm fancy now. I got a Google page where I can get reviews. So y'all already know, folks, I love attention. And so anytime you go above and beyond to leave me a comment on the socials or leave a review, it gives me an excuse to celebrate you in the future. So please do so, even if they're stinky. I like the stinky ones too, they're super helpful. Yes, oh man. So amen. I love that you threw training in there because you know, when I'm talking to people, it's like, well, what do you do? I was like, Well, this is what I do. Like, well, what does that mean? I was like, okay, let me say it a different way. I consultant, coach, and trainer. And they're like, like all three. I'm like, it depends on the day, depends on the day, right? It depends on the ask. Like, I like the way you said design build, because for some firms, they've got a pretty big operation going on and they've got multiple layers, and it's design build. Like, okay, here's what do you want to achieve? What's the intended outcome? Here's my recommendation for this level of the organization, this level of the organization, and out there in the field. And there's a mix of coaching, consulting, and training throughout the thing. Now, I think the other important part that you've mentioned, and I want to like clarify this, at least from Jesse Land, right? The in my perspective, the idea of expertise. Because, and I need you like to correct us or get correct me if I'm wrong or if there's anything missing. Because for the LM family member out there that's listening, I know a lot, and I used to be this way. I was stuck in like, well, I can't, like, I've never done that before. I don't have the expertise, I don't have the experience. And so it was this limiting, it was this block in front of me that I allowed to keep me from it's like spanning my wings, right? And so, in terms of like training, facilitation, and all of that, what I learned, because I did it wrong early on, is I've done presentations this a long time ago on things that I had never I had no experience with. It was a concept or an idea that sounded cool and great, and so I did a training on it, but don't ask me no questions because my answer was you gotta look it up, you gotta read this book. I couldn't give any practical firsthand experience of me having done it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well, we call that a book report.
SPEAKER_02:Well, there you go. I love that. I was doing book reports, and when I did that, I had zero expertise on the matter, and it was not fun, it was uncomfortable for me, and I know the people in the room were like, What the hell was this? Right? Like this was and now with YouTube, like you could just watch it on YouTube now, anyways. So, fast forward to like the question of expertise. The simplest way I can like make sense of that for me, and maybe for other people, is expertise is me talking, helping, sharing something that I have wrestled with to some degree that I have an insight and understanding about, which is not really that I notice I didn't say number of years, number of certifications. I said firsthand experience in wrestling and getting dirty and messy with it, and coming to some kind of understanding or insight that I can share. How does that land with you, Wally?
SPEAKER_00:It lands really good. Let me give you my take on it. Expertise is you can see options in doing the thing while you're doing the thing. So a teenager is driving. How far out is their scan? It's the radio, right? And all of a sudden they see brake lights in front of them. And they mash on the brake. Right. We're driving and we're seeing as far out in the front as we can. We're doing the thing. We're driving. But we see some brake lights a quarter mile out. And we're like, brake lights. Oh, brake lights are there. Oh, maybe I should move my foot off the gas. I don't have to do like the options are going. Options and doing the thing while I'm doing the thing. All right, I'm starting to touch the brakes. Now I'm looking for my bailouts because this might not work. Looking for options. So I walk down to a job site. I see things. I don't see the things that the superintendent sees because they see options in doing the thing. They have expertise. So here's what I say from a coaching perspective when it comes back to our world. If your coach can't give you five ways to solve your problem, they may not be an expert. Yes. You know, they say, oh, what you need to do is I don't know. That's somebody giving you orders. Right. You know, expertise says, Well, you could do this. I don't know if it's a really good idea, but you could do it. You could do this. You could do this. You could do this. And here's the problem with expertise is you think you know the answer, and then you become less of a listener. Yeah. And that is the risk for leaders because they have been there, they have done that, they have seen it fail or work. And then when the 22-year-old comes on the job site, they're like, Yeah, that was stupid. Shut up and dig. And then the kid never says another word. So long answer, long, long answer. Expertise is you can see options in doing the thing while you're doing the thing.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And I think the connection is it comes from having done the damn thing. Like if you've never done it, you won't know.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Or you know, if you spend enough time around it, though, that substitutes. Like, I don't have to get bloody to understand a bandage is required when someone is bleeding, right? Sure, sure. Right. So, you know, one of one of my favorite ones is the restaurant industry. Like, they teach you how to handle a robbery. That's something you never really want to be an expert in, right? Right. Um, but yes, I mean, and so now it are we just talking to a practitioner or an expert. Yeah, somebody who has been doing it for a long time truly may not be expert. They just may be repeating the same play, tired play, you know, and it says, Well, I have 20 years of experience. No, you have one year 20 times. Yes. Uh, and welcome to 2025, welcome to 2026. Means and methods are changing, demographics are changing, technology is changing. You cannot walk in and automatically apply the solution that worked last year, last month, whatever, last decade. It may be the right solution, but it has to be more thoughtful now than it than it has been.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. Take into account the new conditions, right? Like, what did like sure that play worked under those conditions? Exactly. What are the conditions we're in now? The people, the all of the things that and I am guilty of I know the answer, release the kraken, and it did not work. Now, you play a lot in the leadership space in the construction leadership space. Why did you pick construction leadership?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I'm an idiot. You know, what can I say? Dusty, dirty, male, in your face. My brother and dad were construction guys in New York City when I grew up. Nice. So when I was 13, 14, I was a helper on union jobs in New York City. And we all know what a helper means, you know, doing all that crap stuff, all the way up into college. And uh, so the real answer is this is in my blood. No, I'm I no, I'm not a builder, right? I can't hop on a machine on 10 different machines and make it sing. That's but the fundamental respect and understanding of what these crafts people, what these construction folks do day in, day out, it's in my blood. And when I'm standing across from a foreman on a job site, it's as if I'm hanging out with my brother. Uh, you know, a little banter, maybe a little BS, a little bravado, respect. Yeah. But respect and they look, people feel that. They don't feel wally with an MBA and a CSP and a CMC and all that stuff. They don't feel that. They don't care about that. They want to care that my solutions work for them and that I understand them. So why construction? I don't know. Maybe God put me here. Um, but this is where I am, and it's where I'm, you know. And early on, right, I was like, oh, I'm gonna be all things to all people, right? Back when we were teaching time management on Saturdays, and it's like something just embrace who you are and recognize yes, there are other places you could be doing things, but this is who I am, and you know something, it works pretty damn well.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, man, yeah, 10 for I mean, everybody knows my story, it came up through the trades, and so it's like this is where I need to go. I know recently I've made I don't know how obvious it is, but I'm working on that. I made a little shift to really speak to subcontractors, right? Foreman, super superintendents, like the people that work for the subcontract, because that's where my expertise is. I spent over 20 years like doing the thing at various levels on the subcontractor side, but I just wasn't doing a very good job at speaking to them, saying, Hey, I'm gonna help you. Right. Which is not bad, but it's there was some period of time where I'm like, okay, I could do this for everybody, which didn't help, right? I was just kind of outstanding on the corner, screaming into nowhere, and then I said, Okay, no construction, and now I'm like, you know what? I'm gonna scope in a little tighter specifically for subcontractors, because there aren't a lot of people serving subcontractors, A, and B, there are even fewer with my we'll say resume or pedigree, right? Coming up as an installer foreman, worked for general contractors, works for owners, and having that kind of broader view or understanding of how like the commingling or the dance that is construction. So when you're out there, I mean, we talked about this a little while ago, right? There, there's there's the super, super high performing outfits out there that want to just stay on the front edge and still kick butt. There's some the majority, I'm gonna say majority, that are like, hey, it's fine, leave us alone, we ain't got time for you. And then there's the other ones that the sky is falling down, they need an intervention. And so, in terms of the folks that you serve, right? The organizations that you serve, what's the ratio between wanting to stay on the front edge and oh my god, we need a freaking transfusion?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, I would say 80% are on the you know the good side. Oh yeah, yeah, no, really lucky. The ones that need a transfusion, they're usually so small that they're in that crisis mode, uh, you know, owner trying to figure it out, whatever. And I just don't spend a lot of time there. You know, your larger firm, so you get over a couple hundred million in this subcontractor world, you know, they're established and their crises look different. Oh, yeah. Um, right. So they're not in that super catastrophic mode, usually, because there's enough decent people around them to do the intervention or help with the intervention. Yes. Now there are individuals within those organizations that get promoted to take your chief estimator, or you know, you're not going to be the VP of ops unless, you know, dot. So that's where coaching one-on-one coaching for six months to a year would come in. And we say, hey, can we can we do behavioral change here? The answer is yes in most cases, by the way. Like coaching does work if you choose to work. And you and I are both from a program where we learned how to do the work and you can transform your life and get sober and all of those things. So, you know, when somebody says that's just the way I am, that's crap. Yes, that's how you choose to be. Now, we're talking neuroscience that may have been established when you're seven, eight, nine, ten years old, and you're significantly baked by the age of 15. Like your neural pathways, as much as we have neuroplasticity, you some of it you're just not going to change. But there's a piece that you can, and you know, that's when the wife comes up to you at the Christmas party. So we know it's possible. Yeah. Oh, I love it.
SPEAKER_02:I get the question of what's the best scenario for change to stick? Is it like preemptive? Get on the front end and teach and coach and like let all the flowers bloom, or is it when the shits hit the fan? And I'm like, philosophically, it's preemptive, right? When did Noah build start before the floods? But yeah, in practice, it's when the shit's hitting the fence.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it ain't working anymore. We need to do something different. Yes, you know, you know, you're right about both of those.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and it's exactly that, right? The pain, I'm I'm not sure whose quote it is, but like the pain of doing the same has exceeded the pain of change. So now people are more receptive to doing it differently. Whereas on the front end, doing it on the front end, which I'm a huge proponent of, it just takes longer for it to like really stick than you know the reactive approach.
SPEAKER_00:What's the phrase? You got sick and tired of being sick and tired, you know.
SPEAKER_02:So, yeah, exactly. All right, so we mentioned at the beginning that you've helped these companies deliver profits, and we've talked a little bit about consulting and coaching and training. So, what's the connection between the types of services that you and I provide, attraction and even retention of talent, and profits?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so it's a math problem that if culture is better, so I'll broadly say that because leaders are not jerks and those kinds of things. If culture is better, people choose to stay. Because we all know the line that people don't leave companies, they leave bosses, right? So if I've got a great company and I've got a great boss, people choose to stay. What does that mean? Well, that means turnover went down. How much? Probably about 20%. Uh if you compare, you know, expert with good, and then it's probably another 15% if you go to like you suck. But so so there's a measurable decrease in turnover, which we know increases safety, increases productivity, and those two things then increase profitability. Yeah. Now, I'll give you another way of looking at it from a guy who implemented all these things and created an incredible training center, etc. Many times great place to work since he started the initiative. They're growing like crazy in a good market in the southeast. He says, You know something, Wally? I don't know what the ROI is, I just know my life is a hell of a lot easier.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, yeah, you know, I want to be rude, Wally. It I get in these con not all the time, and it's usually a red flag of like, oh, we're gonna we may or may not have a long-term relationship here, right? Right. Is the well, what's the data? What's the ROI? What's the ROI? I'm like, okay, I appreciate your question. And in my head, what I'm thinking is, what was the data analysis you did on getting married? What was the data analysis you did on deciding to have children?
SPEAKER_00:Like, I understand where you're because if you did that analysis, you wouldn't have had children, right?
SPEAKER_02:Like, what's the ROI on that? Oh, you're gonna be negative at least a million dollars per child, like over the lifetime. Yeah, like um for real, this is what we're gonna talk about, but I understand it, and I'm with you, right? There is a connection, there is a line between I mean, how many? I'm sure you've heard this many times. It seems like every training I do, or whatever, consulting, whatever I'm doing, there's folks in the room, 15, 20, 30 year veterans in the industry that will say, Man, I've been around since you know, whatever, and this is the first time I ever got any training. You get that?
SPEAKER_00:All the time there that that crew lead is the most underserved and you know on the face of the earth. One day somebody gave him some keys and a tool and a clipboard, now keys and an iPad, and said, You're in charge. And God bless them, they pull it off. But yeah, we'll transition into we got a mental health issue. Oh, and part of it is because we bury these guys.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, totally. I mean, that was that was what that experience is what motivated me early in my career when I was superintendent at the time. Well, it was also money, right? Because the company I worked with was an employee-owned organization, and we got bonuses by the project, anyways. When I got to superintendent level, I just assumed all the other foremen they kind of did the same thing. And I like they did not. And like the experience was I was pretty good at installing. I got promoted, I sucked. They told me I sucked for a year, I figured out I got better. Then I got promoted again. They told me I sucked for a year, right? And now I'm a workaholic, so I love the challenge and I'm super competitive. And so I put in a ton of time, not just like doing the job wrong, but learning how to do it, like for real, learning how to read the estimates and how to make labor projections based on what the estimate is and our production rates are. And then I'm like, why aren't we why aren't we teaching our guys this? We're just now don't get me wrong, the comp like it was TD Industries, they have a phenomenal leadership development program, which gave me a lot of tools on like how to like deal with people and maybe manage myself a little bit more, but they did nothing, they had nothing that helped me be a better foreman, that helped me be a better superintendent, like to do it within the context of that organization, yeah. And so that's where the train for me, I'm like, I'm gonna teach my guys how to how do you plan? What are the key characteristics of an actionable plan? How do you measure the performance of the plan? How do you learn from that? And now I was doing it one to help them, but also because I was, you know, I wanted my bonus. And if they did a better job planning, I got a bigger bonus, or we got bigger bonuses. And so what I could also see is an employee owner of the company was man, there was that foreman and the superintendent leap where people either made it and they were like it was extremely taxing for that person, yeah, and it was very expensive for us because there was a lot of mistakes and right, like super, super expensive. And the same thing at the superintendent level. And so when we started doing the training, I was doing it at the bar with my buddies, right? Like, hey man, I'll show you how I read the estimate and the budget and whatever. And then eventually I became responsible for doing the thing. We saw a dramatic impact, like dramatic impact, yeah, in terms of operating income, huge, it was amazing, but we also, which I wasn't paying attention to back then, saw major impact in like the quality of life our foreman and superintendents were experiencing, which was something I did not pay attention to back then. Now I do, and so in terms of like quality of life for the folk the frontline leaders, is that your primary focus, like that audience?
SPEAKER_00:So, no, this isn't about quality of life, this is about a construction company making money. However, when I stand in front of dudes, I'll say, Hey, here's what the deal is. If you do some of this stuff, you'll have more smiley faces and more dollar signs on the job site. So it is about quality of life. And I don't, I you know, I in this oh, by the way, we never said low of the standard, right? Let's go back to that conversation, right? These are not mutually exclusive concepts. You can you can have great culture, you can make a ton of money. Oh, but why this is construction, you don't understand. No, I do understand, like it rained Tuesday through Thursday. We're paving on Saturday. I'm sorry, like it's going to happen. And nobody has a problem with that. We haven't had rain in nine weeks, and we're paving on Saturday, right? You know, that's where we miss it. But you were talking earlier about what you began to train when you were in the supervisory role. When we help create a frontline leadership program, about half of it is my stuff. About half of it, and we're talking six, eight days of training here over, you know, a couple of months, could be planning, right? For sure. Hopefully they've learned that, but short it will scheduling. How do we create an estimate? One of the most fascinating classes because nobody knows how the estimate is created. Right. And you know, if you're talking, you know, a dirt guy, for example, they've got Ag Tech and Google Earth and this and that. They've got a hundred thousand dollars worth of software just to put the bid together, right? So, and they're out there walking the job and they're flying it with drones, and the field guys are going, oh, you really didn't just throw a dart at a dart board? Equipment utilization, right? How much are you gonna charge me for this D7 and why, et cetera? These are fascinating points, but they enable this frontline leader now to make better decisions, yes, and to explain to the team. So, yeah, the things there. So I think there's a pyramid, uh, not a pyramid, a triangle. I talk about I call the success triangle. At the base of the triangle is technical competence. You know how to pull wire, you know how to paint, you know how to dig, whatever that craft is. Like you have to have that foundational piece. Then we move into management, which is the planning, the organizing, those kinds of things, understanding the bid, et cetera. And then there's leadership, which arguably is generic, right? How do you how do you get along with people, et cetera? There's nuances within our industry about culture, the way people are and stuff like that. But you got to do all of those things. And what you talked about is you went through those three progressions. Like you were good, you got promoted, you suck. You were good, you got promoted, you sucked, right? And you went through those progressions and you made it. And a lot of guys are doing it, but they haven't made it. And what I mean by that is life is brutal. Yes. And they go home and they don't see their kids, and it's all right, like even in the best weeks, you know, they're long hours. So it doesn't have to suck. It's gonna be hard, but it doesn't have to suck.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, you're exactly right. It's like sprints or doing hills, like it's gonna hurt, but it doesn't. Have to suck. And it gets better. It gets better. You gotta put in the work. But I think, you know, one of my I think my whiny wines of today, and this is just more evidence of how hypocritical I am, Wally. I agree and believe to my heart that as a journeyman, whatever, doesn't matter what trade, part of your responsibilities as a journeyman is to develop apprentices, right? To teach them and train them and help them get better at the trade. Same thing as foreman, same thing as superintendent. I believe that, and that's the way I did my job. Now, here's my gripe. Companies do nothing to reinforce and appreciate that. So when a company has an individual that has that heart mindset or that leadership trait, they're lucky because very and maybe I'm the net's too broad. There are very few companies that have actually earned that leadership from their individuals. Most of them just expect it but do nothing to nurture, develop it, and like propagate it. What do you think? Am I talking smack?
SPEAKER_00:No, you're not. I you know, I remember talking to a guy who's a regional manager years back, and it's like every 18 months they were taking his project engineers away, you know, to go be project managers elsewhere and regional manager. And uh, you know, there was no bonus for that. I mean, it was just in his DNA, but it's almost like the company expected him to, you know, develop that next project engineer, etc. Look, I think that if you're a leader, it's in your DNA. You make new leaders. Yep. If you're an apprentice, if you're a journeyman, you make new journeyman, right? It's the same concept. It is interesting though how we all forget we were all knuckleheads once. Yep, right. Somebody helped you, somebody helped me. Now it might have been behind the dumpster, right? Or it might have been over coffee, either one, but every single one of us had help along the way. And if listeners do one thing coming out of this call, is right now when I say it, who can you help? Somebody's name went through your mind. Oh, yeah, right. Okay, that's your project. You know, lean in a little bit more, get to know them a little bit more. Maybe you know exactly what they need, right? You know, and maybe they can start doing the daily huddle or something like that, whatever. But every single one of us got helped, and we go back to servant when we started this call, right? Who are you gonna help? It's an easy takeaway.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, totally. And back to the selfish servant, like that gives me fulfillment, right? Have an interesting relationship between profits and fulfillment, quality of life. I'm an addict, right? And I will be, it's just it's in my DNA, baby, period. Yeah, and when I started my business, like I set a revenue goal, a revenue target for the year, and I'm blessed because I blew that freaking thing out of the water within the first less than six months. It was like four months, and like, whoa, I need to set a bigger target. So I set a bigger target and I blew that thing out of the water again. And then I was like, wait, okay, I'm an addict. If I keep just chasing these dollar goals, I'm I'm on a slippery slope, right? Like, I have a lot of things in place that keep me sober and on the contribution path, but I'm building me a slide down, is what I was doing. And so I had to change my focus. Okay, what are the things of the services that I provide? Which one give me the most fulfillment? And then I said, Okay, oh man, those are the least profitable. Well, come on, big boy! Like, you this is if this is the goal, this is the goal. So I had to change it. So back to the selfish servant and this idea of profitability and quality of life. Like, I have to focus on contribution and service so that I can stay alive. If I focus on the other things, and I'll also add to that, right? Focusing on quality of life and serving others has produced enormous profit. I don't have the same outcome if I flip the focus.
SPEAKER_00:Does that make sense, Wally? No, it totally does. If I increase the capacity of my team, that makes my life easier, yeah. Right. So when I teach somebody how to uh do a walk around or how to uh whatever, whatever, when I increase the capacity of my team, that makes my life better. So that that means I I don't have to micromanage, maybe I can get out of work on time. You know, one of the phrases I'll ask is what's going to cause somebody to take the bullet for you?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, ooh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Meaning, you know, it's Friday afternoon, we're dirt guys, there's a tropical storm coming in, and Jose makes the decision to walk the job one more time to make sure erosion control is in place. Yeah, right. That's what we're trying, and what does that do? That creates more smiley faces and more dollar signs, right? Because everyone kind of, you know, good things are happening. So I'm totally with you. So, you know, it is it really selfish? No, I mean, we all win when we do it. It's and that's a growth mindset, yes, right? It's not a deficit mindset of, oh, if I give to you and I are competitors, yeah, we do the exact same thing for the exact same people in a several trillion dollar industry. Yeah, I'm fairly confident I'm still gonna be able to put food on the table, though I have done this, right? Yes, so and I think you're starting to see this in the industry, right? These top contractors in whatever trade in the dirt world that the dirt world guys have done it with this dirt world summit and Aaron Witt and Buildwit. I mean, you're right. And you have if you have competitors coming together, no collusion, none of that, but saying, What are you doing on the people front? What do you do? Like the best thing I want is for you to be superior because what happens is somebody paid you and said it was worth it to bring in an outside person, and then maybe they'll bring me in or go to a different company or whatever, right? If you suck, then by reputation, I suck, right? So this elevation of the industry is absolutely happening, and there's plenty of room for this.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, absolutely. You know, uh when I first started my little business, it's just me, right? It's just me kind of tinkering. I was asking folks, like, hey, do you have a proposal? Like, I don't know any, like, what do I need to know? Can you give me a template? And there were a couple of people there like, like, Jess, you're just gonna have to figure it out. Like, they had this scarcity mindset, yeah, yeah. Which I understand, like, I get it. It's not the game I play, I get it. And but the thing that goes through my head, even now when I'm working with companies, they're like, Well, you know, you can't, you got to keep this a secret. I'm like, you know what? You I will, but you're not doing anything dramatically different than anybody else, like proprietary, like from a sp uh perspective of proprietary value or intellectual property. It's like y'all are doing the same things.
SPEAKER_00:It's you're pretty well thinking, you know, uh Alabama, pretty good football team, right? Yeah, everybody knew what Nick Saban was doing, right? They could see the plays, they knew what he did from a culture perspective because he went out and lectured on it. They hired his assistants, they went and did it other places. There was there are no secrets there. Yeah, there is a secret sauce, right? And that's how does that all come together? Yes. Now, I know my cynics are gonna go out there and go, Well, they're not doing it anymore. Context changed, NIL changed everything, right? So, this we talked about context earlier. So, no, no, don't be a jerk and treat people with respect is not exactly proprietary. But how does that really come to you know for in your company if you have an owner who says it or an owner who believes it? Yeah, and and that's very different.
SPEAKER_02:Amen. Amen. 100. And none of us can handle all the work if we got it, anyways, right? Let's just say that. Like, for real, I couldn't. My systems are not set up to handle all of the work that is available. I don't want all the work.
SPEAKER_00:Well, that gets into the thing our contractors get into. Well, I'm just gonna hire more people, and then you lose contact with the customer and you lose quality, and that's a decision you get to make, yeah, right. That's a choice you get to make. I have buddies who run multi-multi-million dollar businesses and have 40 employees. Yeah, yeah. You know something? I like having, I'm gonna use the word an intimate relationship with the owners or presidents that I work with. So, you know, that there's this deep level of trust where I could probably pick up the phone, you know, and there's your popular client, you know, the people you're working with right now, right? And call and go, hey, I got a question. I have a question of you. And they're like, Yeah, what's up, Wally? Well, I don't want sorry to bother you on Friday, you know. It's like, don't worry about it, brother. It's cool. What's up? Yeah, you know, and but the those are the type of people we associate with, those are the type of people who want to get better. And I wasn't always that way, you aren't always that way, but you step into the light of this servant mentality, this growth mentality, and people are out there listening to me going, you drank some Kool-Aid, you know, like woo-woo. No, like, whoa, yeah, right. I've been in great cultures and I've been in crappy cultures. Everybody out there has been in great cultures and crappy cultures. And now here's a reality check for some of our listeners. You're hostage to where you are, you're afraid to leave. Because now, this the economy right now maybe not a good time to leave, but right, if it sucks, there's a better place out there. There really is. 100%.
SPEAKER_02:100%. I think from two perspectives, I know a lot of people that I want to be a senior PM, I want to be a senior, they want a promotion. I like all that. Right, yeah. I was like, that's easy. Quit your job, go apply for another job, and tell them you want the time. They'll give you the like you'll they'll hire you, they need you, and they'll give you more money, too. And however, yeah, exactly. Like, are you one? Is it really what you want? Do you know what you're asking for? And two, it doesn't mean the same thing everywhere you go. Right, senior PM, it don't matter, like company to company, there are different expectations or different levels of performance, and the idea of getting that little promotion, that change in title, maybe there's something deeper that needs to be examined and understood before you go make a big giant mess of things because you haven't got the title that you want.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and the culture at your current company, you know, maybe superior, right? But you go over, I never forget a guy came up to me at World of Concrete a couple years back, you know, 400 people in the room. He comes up, hey, how you doing? I'm like, Oh Christ, here we go. He goes, Yeah, you know, I'm listening to what you're saying. I'm like, Oh, here we go. Um, because I'm talking about great culture. And he says, a couple of years ago, I said, he says, a couple years ago, I said, F the culture, I'm going for the money. I'm like, okay, how long did you stay? He goes, Oh, nine months, couldn't take it. You couldn't pay me enough to be there, yeah. So the you know what's the grass is always greener, but just they're gonna mow the lawn or whatever. Oh, yeah. Um, right, but it's really tough. So here we are saying, look, you can leave and go somewhere else. Yeah, but really take a good look. Now, if your world truly sucks, then yeah, you probably need to go. But if it's like, you know, I could make 10% more across the street, yeah, but they don't respect you across the street. They think I had a guy say this to me once, he goes, I don't know how people why people would want to go there. We pay more. Yeah, won't go. And it was about Granite Rock, which back with TD, they were like the founding the foundation members of the great culture club in construction, documented from a great place to work perspective. Great point, right? But there was a competitor of Granite Rock saying, Well, we pay more, we must be better. And it's like, oh no, I've seen their PL, buddy. You ain't better.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you have no idea.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, okay. So there's two more points I want to hit on before we get into the Grand Slam question. So you mentioned the dirt world, and from my perspective, it may just be straight up ignorance, my own ignorance, but I feel like the energy in the dirt world, like there's the summit. I don't know if it's their second or third year they've had it, but there just seems to be a volcano of energy and messaging and like freaking amazing leaders along with the summit and you know, all of that. Am I did I just miss it before, or did it just kind of hit the scene and like it's taking over?
SPEAKER_00:It's it's a recent thing, it really is what Aaron Witt has created over the last seven years, I guess. Yeah, and you know, you have internet and vision and passion and borderline stupidity, you know, in trying to create a movement. But he it so no, it is, and that's where I'm spending a lot of my time these days. But you're right, you go to the electrical world or the mechanical world or the GC world, whatever. And look, everyone's got their trade association, right? I mean, but but it be it's that zero-sum game of well, if I get mine, you don't get yours, right? Or vice versa. And it's just a different mentality. Look, like we all so high schools, we're gonna recruit out of high schools. Well, the industry figured that out about five years ago, uh because now we're and it's like, okay, cool. Well, you know something who uh you know who has got figured out now? Healthcare. Healthcare is in the high schools. You know who else figured it out? Tech is going to the high schools and saying, You're a nerd, you don't need to go to college, you can come to work for me. So we're like, oh shit, we thought we found this great labor source. It's like we did, but we notice I say we, uh the construction industry is in a war for talent, not with the contractor next door, right? But with the healthcare company where they get to work inside every day, or the high tech company where they get to go nerdy stuff every day. Now, look, not everyone is built for each of those environments, but there's a story to be told, and we as an industry, you remember got milk and beef, like those industries figure, you know, pork, the other white meat, whatever. Those industries figured it out. Yeah, and construction is too busy battling itself.
SPEAKER_02:Yep, yep, yeah. I love, I mean, it's interesting to see not just the messaging because I have a heartache about the idea of marketing to trade, to bring more people into the industry when we treat them like crap when they get here, right? That's called bait and switch, right? Like that's it. There's there's a I mean, generally speaking, it is absolutely a bait and switch situation. Yeah, there are pockets of like real amazing experiences, but they're small pockets, they're growing, but they're small, and so it's not just the bait and switch of hey, come work for my subcontractor alpha, my HVAC company. It's also the bait and switch of when you go work on a project, and the GC is going to treat you like crap too. So yeah, yeah, like there's we have systemic things that need to be fixed. The marketing, I agree. Now, with what I love in like watching what's going on over there with the in the dirt world is not just the marketing, like the production value, it's freaking amazing. Like, man, that's amazing. I would love to do that, and I know I'm not gonna put in the effort to get that good. I'm good with my messy shit, like whatever. Yeah, but I also what seems what I think I'm seeing is there's leaders that are associated with that movement that are also becoming more visible, and their people within their organizations are becoming more visible and more active. And I think that rather that to me is what's special about what's happening in the dirt world that hasn't made its way through the other, we'll say, segments of the construction industry.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you're absolutely right. Look, I mean, there's enough electrical guys, there's enough mechanical guys to have movement, right? Tile guys, maybe not, right? Right, and I don't love those guys. My brother did that for years, so yeah, it's almost like you know, Prince, Beyonce, you know, the people you know by one, you know, LeBron. Um, there are people within the dirt world that are becoming, yes, you know, Aaron and Herb and Chad and Dan. And it's like, oh, you know them. I'm like, yeah, I didn't with them last night. Oh, you're so special. No, I'm just a trying to help people get better. Right. Yeah, it's like, yeah, whatever.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. No, you're right. Herb's one that stands out. That guy's amazing. I got to have a meal with them here in San Antonio. Okay. Now you have been putting out an annual, I'm gonna mess it up, but like an annual report based on some pretty significant, I'm gonna call it research. Yeah, like what can you tell the audience? Because I peaked it as like, okay, like there's some heavy stuff, and I love lately, I've seen your post kind of pulling chunks out of it or insights from what you've learned and gleaned over the years. What is that? So the LM family knows that there's something out there that they can go seek their teeth into.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's the people in construction report. Yeah, and I do it every other year, and it is it goes back to this conversation about expertise, right? About rather than just running my mouth, let's give some good data. So every other year, starting in 2019, and we just released uh a couple months ago, and it's data with which you can look at your organization. Uh, it's survey based and it's a little bit of focus group based. So once I get the data, I'll go talk to folks that have responded to it and go, all right, tell me a little bit more about this. Because, like any survey, it only tells you so much. Um, and it it just talks about everything we've talked about. Uh, it talks about the field. There's universal themes, the field office chasm. You know, how do you bridge that? Um, mental health is a new mega trend, you know, that is out there over the last couple of years. So, yeah, it's the people in construction report, comes off the people in construction survey. You can go to wallyatamcheck.com and get it. I don't firewall it, I don't ask you for your email. I'm too lazy. Um for those of you, yeah. For those of you on LinkedIn, you can go right to my profile and it's right there. It's a red cover this year, people in construction report. And it's it's pretty good data. And uh goes back to your question earlier about profitability and all that stuff. Like there is there there are very few places where you can look at culture profit, right? Because these are all. Dependent variables, but I try to give as much data here so people can kind of see some of those dependencies because you're never going to be able to say Jesse did a program, we need we made more money. It's like we're the piece of equipment. Oh, we got a bigger backhoe, we were able to move more dirt. Okay, I can show that one. So yeah, people in construction report, go get it, take a look at it.
SPEAKER_02:Beautiful, beautiful. Yeah, it's super valuable. I like like there's the correlation, right? Like if I got a backhoe with a bigger bucket, I'm gonna move more yards. And that's the math question. The stuff that we do, in some cases, I'm like, yeah, there's a direct correlation. I can do the math and show it to you, but I gotta you gotta let me do that.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, you measure turnover, right? One less guy left. Was that because of you or because his wife had a baby? I like I don't like you know, yeah, yeah. So uh it's a bit of a leap of faith on our stuff for sure.
SPEAKER_02:10 for amazing. All right, Mr. Wally. You're you told us about your website. Actually, let me make sure. I'm sure folks out there listening, they're saying, Man, I need some more of the Wally. So we're gonna give them your LinkedIn, the profile link. We'll get the website in the thing so they can get the people in construction report. But if they want like a super awesome like baller that has massive expertise to come and help their company, do you have bandwidth for that?
SPEAKER_00:Should they call you? Well, first of all, a phone call is always zero. And if you know, it doesn't cost anything, right? Right. And this just it's just like another podcast, right? I mean, it's like let's share information, let's talk, and you know, you never know, right? What makes sense and when makes sense? You know, there's always a little bit of bandwidth, right? Um, but I'm learning like you, not to put as much. My two Februaries ago, I worked. When I say worked, I mean stood in front of every single weekday, every single day, right? So 20, 5, 10, 15, 20 days. Like I made a lot of money. Yeah, then Memorial Day weekend, I had 102 degree fever for 48 hours. Oh, geez, no way. Yeah, so that's the body going. That's not gonna let you do this anymore. But uh yeah, so yeah, like you said, if they want to know more. I mean, I post what five, six times a day a week on LinkedIn. So you'll know you'll either love me or hate me after tracking me on LinkedIn for a little while. And uh then, yeah, a DM and an email is fine.
SPEAKER_02:Excellent. All right. Well, are you ready for the grand slam closing question, Mr. Water? I don't know, but I have to be. You gotta be. Here we go. And I imagine with the amount of interaction, the caliber of leaders that you've supported in developing themselves, and also the leader that you are, I'm really eager to hear your answer. So here's a question: What is the promise you are intended to be?
SPEAKER_00:I a little bit of background. A couple months ago, I was driving from North Carolina, Raleigh to the coast doing a speech out in New Bern. For those of you who don't know the the eastern part of North Carolina, it's like driving through West Texas. I mean, there's nothing, right? There's no gas stations, there's nothing. So there's about an hour of me going, I'm not done yet. Like I'm aging, but but I'm not done yet. Why am I not done yet? Because I know more than I've ever known, and I'm humbler than I've ever been. So the promise is to be a better human being. And what does that mean? To put goodness out in the world so that it can be manifested further. My world narrowly happens to be job sites, but you know, the person at the airport, man, I really try to be nice. I'm a jerk every day, you know, to some degree. I mean, we're human, right? Yeah, um, but I think the promise is to put goodness out there because man, we need a lot more of that these days.
SPEAKER_02:Oh man, I love it. And that that t-shirt quote, I'm older and I'm humbler, I know more and I'm humbler. Like, holy moly, like that's facts, baby. Oh, Mr. Wally, thank you, sir. Did you have fun?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, oh you know me, I just I speak for a living, right? So you let me just run my mouth. I mean, let's keep going.
SPEAKER_02:I know it, I know. You know, I like to say this to the teachers that told me that I would never amount to anything because I talked too much. Now I'm like, how you like me now?
SPEAKER_00:But you know, I and I know I loved it, and we could you and I could go on all day, but the real message to the listeners is all of this is possible, right? Not all of it once, but all of it is possible. Like who you and I are today was unenvisioned a couple years back, for me, 20 something years back, right? Right. Um, so you know, fear, self-serving, whatever. Goodness is possible. Growth is possible. The fact that you're listening to this is nice. Take something and do something with it. That'll be better.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you for sticking it out all the way to the end. I know you got a whole lot of stuff going on. And in appreciation for the gift of time that you have given this episode, I want to offer you a free PDF of my book, Becoming the Promise You're Intended to Be. The link for that bad boy is down in the show notes. Hit it. You don't even have to give me your email address. There's a link in there. You just click that button, you can download the PDF. And if you share it with somebody that you know who might feel stuck or be caught up in self-destructive behaviors, that would be the ultimate. You sharing that increases the likelihood that it's going to help one more person. And if it does help one more person, then you're contributing to me becoming the promise I am intended to be. Be kind to yourself, be cool, and we'll talk at you next time.