Why Relationships Are the Real Foundation of Construction with Mike Chiles

In this episode of the Learnings and Missteps podcast, Jesse interviews Mike Chiles, a seasoned project director in the construction industry. They discuss the unpredictable challenges of construction, the importance of relationship building, and effective leadership. Mike emphasizes the role of leaders in developing their teams, creating a balanced and supportive work environment, and the value of feedback from those on the ground. They also delve into the importance of character development and the long-term benefits of investing in people-centric approaches. The episode concludes with reflections on the impact of leadership and the legacy one leaves through influence. 

00:00 Introduction and Welcome Back 

00:32 Introducing Mike Chiles: The Construction Influencer 

01:30 LnM Family Shoutout: Gary Martinez 

02:40 Getting to Know Mike Chiles 

03:56 The Role of a Project Director 

05:43 Challenges and Learnings in Leadership 

07:47 Training and Developing Future Leaders 

11:47 The Importance of Relationships in Construction

20:18 Feedback and Continuous Improvement 

23:29 Building a People-Centered Culture 

35:10 Project Assignments and Training Responsibilities 

36:18 Feedback Loops and Execution Challenges 

36:51 Importance of On-Site Feedback 

37:18 Lean Principles for Executives 38:23 Building Relationships and Appreciating Workers 

40:23 Addressing Labor Shortages and Industry Challenges 

44:34 The Role of Old Dogs in Knowledge Sharing 

48:32 Lean Construction and Relationship Building 

01:03:40 The Promise of Influence and Legacy 

01:07:13 Conclusion and Free Book Offer 

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Transcript

Weather, Variability, And Construction Chaos

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I mean, ain't that one of the maybe fun things and also super irritating things about construction that we get to contend with every possible variation that exists? Whether like anything in all of the above can just come in and kick your plan right in the face. What is going on, LM family back again? I know we've been off the air with the interviews. I've been slacking, but we're getting back on track. And I have a super awesome individual that has, I don't know if he just popped up in my world here and within the last, we'll say, three, six months. But it's clear that he ain't joking and he's out here to make a difference. He's a project director, been in construction for a long time. He is an old dog. And if you don't know about the old dogs, we're going to learn a little bit about the old dogs. And he in my book qualifies as a construction influencer. His name is Mike Chiles. And I want to be clear when I say construction influencer, I'm not talking about somebody that creates content about construction. I'm talking about somebody that is committed to leaving the industry better than they found it and is taking active steps to make that happen. So I'm excited to learn more from him and introduce you to Mr. Mike. Now, if this is your first time here, you are listening to the Learnings and Missteps podcast, where you get to meet amazing human beings just like you that are sharing their gifts and talents to leave this world better than they found it. I am Jesse, your selfish servant, and we are about to get to know Mr. Mike, chili child. Mr. Mike, what's going on, my friend? How are you, Jesse? Great to be here. Yeah, man. I love the bag. Like you're out on the job side, chilling. What's the weather like? You're in Kansas City, right?

SPEAKER_01 2:00

I'm gonna say probably like 30-ish today, probably. Okay. Still some snow on the ground. It's been a little cold. Ooh. Catch you guys off guard. I mean, is it colder than normal or no, it's not. But you know, the weather in Missouri goes back and forth. So you'll have you'll have 60 degree weather, and then a week later you'll have like negative 10 weather. It's it's always kind of back and forth. So it definitely can impact your construction flow a little bit, but people do a good job of adapting, overcoming, and you don't know what you're gonna get. So you just make the best of it.

Meet Mike Chiles And His Mission

SPEAKER_00 2:36

Yeah. I mean, ain't that one of the maybe fun things and also super irritating things about construction that we get to contend with every possible variation that exists, whether like anything in all of the above can just come in and kick your plan right in the face. Absolutely. Absolutely. So, first question: What is a project director?

SPEAKER_01 3:00

Nobody knows. No, I'm just kidding. So, so the project director would be you have the senior management level, right? And then you have the project executive level. So that so of the project executive level, you would have the project director and you'd have the GM. So at J E Dunn, the the general manager is the vice president, very outward focused, looking for clients. Clients community also have the builder also have they're in charge of their projects as the project executive, and they run those. And then, you know, you have the project director role would be more probably down and in, less of the outward focus and more of the down and in focus. So when you have really large jobs or complicated projects, or could be several projects, but more of that down and in focus where you're you're training developing, probably going to be more site visibility and those kind of things on the director side. So that's what I do for Jay Dunn. And I'm on right now for a large project at at J Dunn.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

10 4. And I imagine you have some maybe significant amount of responsibility dealing with client relationship.

What A Project Director Really Does

SPEAKER_01 4:10

Yes. Definitely, uh definitely get to deal with the I would say I'm I'm an escalation level, right? So the day-to-day getting things done, everything's going well. I'm I'm probably not hearing too much about that. But if there's escalations, we're definitely involved in those. And so my relationship, like I get to say hi or talk through a few things, but then if I'm called to the meeting, it's probably because it's something we need to solve, right? At a higher level. So yeah. And that's tough. I I will tell you, like, when you grow up and you're on, say you're running a project and you are the PM, or even if you have a small team, you know, I had a smaller team on my last projects and they were they were pretty complicated. And I was a senior PM role at that time, and I was very involved in day-to-day stuff, right? And uh, and then when I came here and had a bigger team, these people are like, hey, I want to do that. That's my I want to learn that stuff. And it is hard for me to, you know, take a step back and trust people a little bit to kind of let them go through and learn all that because I want to dive in and go solve the problem because I have fun doing it, right? So that's one of the I guess we'll go right into a learning or a misstep there. I came in hot ready to dive in and get stuff done because that's what I was doing on my last job. And these guys are like, no, I want to do that stuff. I don't need you around right now. You go like, you know, let me do my thing and I'll call you if I need you. And I love that part with the team, but it's how do you get that balance of making sure things are going right and you're getting the operational excellence that you want, but also giving people a little space to try things and learn things on their own because that's how you truly learn, right? That's how you know it. So that was a good balance I had to learn at the beginning of this current job.

SPEAKER_00 6:00

So is it kind of like, oh, what do I do with my hands now that other people were taking some of the work that you're like, hell yeah, let me put my head down and bang out this stuff?

SPEAKER_01 6:10

Yeah, going from a smaller team to a bigger team and having people hungry and wanting to do things, right? So, how do you spread that out with the team where you let the team still push themselves and grow in what they want to grow in so that they can get to the next levels and they can start managing people? That's all that's all stuff I had to learn. I mean, it was timely that the the Max Story 5 levels of leadership popped in at that time and there was that free training offer because that kind of helped give me some insight on you know those different levels of where I should be as a director, helping teach people to train people, right? Necessarily going, having that that group go do train people to do the things. I have people now that that want to teach people how to do the things, and I need to teach the people that teach the people to do things, right? So that's a different thing to learn because you do have to give people space there, and that's something that's really hard for some people at those higher levels because you know, honestly, it is fun to get in and grind through things sometimes. And we've talked about sometimes, you know. I got people that are in the senior PM leadership role now, and they're they're kind of learning that too. Of they got PMs that want to go do the spreadsheets and dive into things, and they're like, we don't need you to do that. And and so you're training the senior PMs to go train, let let them try it, let them figure out their own brand and and and work on that stuff, and then you've got to be there as a resource. But if you feel the itch, you're just like, I want to dive in and just go tell your team, hey, can I go help you with this little thing over here? So that because I just need to, I still need it, man. I just need a hit every now and then, right? And yeah, as long as everyone's aligned that you just want to do that, cool. But what we don't do is communicate that, well, we'll get in it because we have a need to go still feel relevant and need it, and then we'll we'll have people mad at us, right? Thinking that we don't trust them to do it. And it and really it's if you sit back and reflect, it's really just no, I just want to do it because it's fine, right? Not because I don't trust you, I just need I want to do something. So that communication, that setup is is really key. That alignment is so big.

Escalations, Trust, And Letting Go

SPEAKER_00 8:30

Yeah, no, I mean it kind of reminds me of I know for me when I went from installer to foreman, it was the work, like I had a lot of stuff to learn, right? Like communication, talking to people, not cussing the GC out all the time, right? There were things, some basic things, but the biggest thing that I struggled with the most was the feedback loop. Right? When I was an installer, I could every hour I could turn around and see how much my effort produced. Like I could see the fruits of my labor. Then I was a foreman and it wasn't like that anymore. Like it took days, like I had to reconcile that the planning, the coordination, the ordering of material, staging, all of that. And that's invisible. You can't really see that. But the result of the guys being productive and staying on task, that was the feedback loop, but it was longer, and so it was very, very difficult. And I still tried to install stuff. I had one guy, Robert. I was worried, I took on this little, just a single little bathroom. It was a water closet and a lavatory, and it was an MOB, renovate, finish out. Anyways, I said, I'm gonna do that rough in. Robert closed me aside. He said, Hey man, come here. Let me check, check this out. And he showed me, I was like, damn, that looks like crap. Like the plumbing, it was just horribly done, ink, loose ends everywhere. And I said, Who the hell did that? He's like, Jesse, you and you've been working on it for two weeks. It's a maybe a two-day job, maybe. And I said, Oh, he says, Stop doing that. He was my play, like my lead plumber. He's like, dude, stop doing that. Just get us the material, get us all the stuff we need, get everybody out of our way. Do you keep playing around with that, and and it's a waste of time. We're gonna have to fix it. I'm like, God damn it. And so that was like the point where I said, Okay, I need to shift gears. But, anyways, whole point, like you said, it was tough shifting that feed the dopamine source, right? From the fruits of our labor to actually developing people, and when it comes to developing people, it's a whole different game, right? Because you don't see the instant results. Sometimes you don't see them for two or three years, you feel like you're wasted your time, and then somebody just finally it all comes together and they click. Now, I've worked around a lot of executives, senior leaders, and this all the sort. And I hear this all the time train your replacement, I'm training my replacement, which I think I understand and accept the idea. Except when I ask them how are you training your replacement, they have no answer. What do you think about that? Oh, so do I have an answer to that?

SPEAKER_01 11:18

I think I think a lot of that is you are going to start people managing a process, right? And then as they go ace process, you're gonna give them more and more process, right? And then then there will come a time where they can just manage that that whole system, right? And then they can start teaching people how to do the processes. And honestly, they have they have a lot of say on, I mean, here's the thing, leadership is influence, right? Oh yeah. So so regardless of those titles, you can start to see who your hungry people are, who who are gonna influence job sites, who and people are going to go to who gives them the answers, right? Yes. So so you start to see, are these people hungry? Do they want more? And then you you give them more, and you got to kind of always keep you wanna keep reinforcing them to do a great job at what their role is, but then you also want to get them out of their comfort zone a little bit, right? Yeah. You want to continue to push them and guide them. Now, the training and replacement is important because we we don't get to grow if if if people don't make room for us to grow into, right? So we have to, and this is what we were talking about earlier, a little bit. Like, I may be able to go effectively do something, but as as much as I could do that, I need to go train the other person to do that.

SPEAKER_00 12:56

We're gonna do the LM Family Member shout out. So here we go. This one goes to Mr. Gary Martinez. Up and if folks, if y'all don't know Gary, hopefully you don't, because if you want dirt on me, Gary's got it. But he was in a recent time management workshop we did, and he left me this review. He says, Jesse is always very spirited and honest, makes you think and helps put things into perspective. His training is very well thought out, and Jesse makes sure you have an understanding of all the information. Oh, brother Gary, thank you, man. I love what back in the day, Gary, I think, was an apprentice. I was maybe a foreman or a superintendent, so that's a long, long, long time ago. So, like, for real, for real, he's got the dirt. For the rest of you family members out there, you take the time to leave a comment, leave a review, do a share, all of the things. I super, super appreciate it. And it gives me an excuse to shout you out in the future.

SPEAKER_01 13:56

And that's not me saying, Go do it what I do, checkbox this, checkbox this. That's you saying, This is what I want done. And you got to kind of let them live in the messy a little bit, right? You got to kind of let them the master spreadsheet that we came up with and made our lives so much easier. It's cool that people get to benefit from that, but we also need that person to go make the messy, take that messy thing and make their own master awesome spreadsheet. That's honestly, it's probably gonna be better than ours anyway, right? Right, right. So so that but but we have to give people that time to go try those experiments a little bit and time to go learn how to manage people. And then we got to be there as a backstop one. We we don't want to get them, we gotta be a backstop and help them. We got to show them we got their back and that we're letting them we're letting them learn to be successful there. But when we give them that safe zone, we got to let them try and we gotta let them mess up a couple of times, and and we gotta be there to just guide them through that. And and I I think you just know that's hard to answer because I think there are people you just know, like I know who could replace me on my job site now, but it's because I've watched them, they I've watched them learn, I've watched them grow. Could they do it when they jumped on the job site? No, but now that we've been going through the stuff for a year and we've been learning the team and the team's been working up in different roles. Do do you there becomes that time where you can naturally see them wanting to step into more, and you just gotta give them that rope, right? You just gotta let them step into more, and you're there to guide them. But I call it that exit the spotlight, right? You kind of it's like that home reception picture where you kind of like sinks into the bushes back into the bushes a little bit, kind of like just like you're you got it all set up, you're running a few meetings, and then you see people starting to kind of take in and lead lead at those meetings. Let them lead it, see what happens, right? And it's that it's that kind of thing that you'll see them start to step up and you'll see them get hungry for that, and you just gotta give them that, let them let them have it. Yes, and then uh then it's not scary to go get them working you out of a job, right? Because you've seen them do it. And you know, there's another thing where it's you got to do the job before you get the title, right? And there's that, there's that, that's another thing that that people see too, and you gotta show that you can do it right before they're gonna say, okay, now you can do it, right? I mean, I'm sure it's the same on the trade side with working in a foreman. Like, oh yeah, they can see naturally that people are coming to you for answers, they can see that you're organized and you got your stuff figured out and you know the plan, and they're that they're gonna be like, okay, let's let Jesse run the next what look at or the safety talk, right? And it's you slowly give them more and see how they do.

Shifting From Doer To Developer

SPEAKER_00 16:47

Yeah, I love it because what you said, you give them a process at a time so they can demonstrate competency and then you let them have it, and then you expand their comfort zone and let them give them some responsibility of people and be the backstop so that they can learn their way, right? I think there's tremendous value in letting people learn through the struggle. I think the struggle is where the learning happens. Absolutely. So you have a method, and I applaud you, and of course, that's why we connect, but I've heard so many people in your position say, Oh, I'm training my replacement, and they can't even articulate what you just articulated. And I've watched them, you know what they do? They throw people in the deep end, and if they don't figure it out, they say it's a talent problem. And if they do figure it out, they say, I'm a great trainer. That's bullshit. That is false, poor, weak leadership. And so, folks out there, LM family, you've got a director and executive, and they're doing some of the things that Mike just described. Thank your lucky stars, because they ain't all like that. A lot of them just it's a sink or swim deal. And that's not that's taxing on the human being, on the individual, and it's expensive for the company. I mean, you pointed out, right? I was I was a the reason I got selected to be a foreman is because I was a really good installer. I was fast, I didn't make a lot of mistakes because I was really good at math. I'm super competitive. And they said, hey, he has a plan, he's working this way, he does his work, he's organizing all those things. Let's make him a foreman. The problem with that was now I'm responsible for people, and I had no interest at all about other human beings. The only one I cared about was me. So it took me a while, and by while I mean a couple years, maybe a few years, to start treating, learn figuring out how to develop people. I think I know that's a huge mistake, and it's not just in our industry, it's everywhere where we we have systems that help people develop the skills and competencies on doing and managing things. And because they're good at that, we then throw them into this role of managing and leading people, but we don't do and there's no system to help them build that skill set. Have you seen is that just Texas or does that happen over in in your the show?

SPEAKER_01 19:18

You're hitting you're hitting so many chili buttons right now, dude. Oh man. So I'm gonna tell you this. First off, I'll go to I'll have a little sympathy for those people, those leaders, because there is this that there's truth to systems, not people, right? And so these people that aren't leading well, they're a product of the race, right? So they're probably throwing people in the deep end because they were thrown in the deep end and they just don't figure it out. But that doesn't mean that it's right, it's just what they knew, right? And so people hire Max says people hire for competency and they fire for character. And this is gonna here's the thing why do people follow someone 87 based off character, who they are, and 13 based off competency, what they know, right? So we we see we can measure the competency, so we're comfortable rewarding the competency and saying we're gonna be in charge now of the of people, but we we as companies are not training the character piece enough, and character can be taught, absolutely, character absolutely can be taught. No one is just you are who you are, everyone can learn, everyone can get better, and that growth mindset, Pete. That I think the number one thing we need to be teaching when people get to that major level is that growth mindset. We need people understanding you have to experiment, you have to fail, and it's okay, and that's how you learn. We have to get people understanding that so they're comfortable trying these things, and then we can teach the character piece. It's hard when you someone tells you you're bad with people, you take that personally, right? But it's but it's like until you know where you're at and you know how like a lot of times we'll have bosses tell us if we're effectively leading or not. Like, what why? The people I'm leading are down here. I need to know if those people think that I'm effectively leading, yes, right? Yes, so you don't you know don't grade me on a leader until you've talked to the people I'm leading because they're the ones you know, right? And and that's why the last planner feedback's so important, too, right? Like the people putting the work in place. I'm gonna sit over here in the trailer and I'm gonna go tell Jesse Jesse's got to go be done with uh this much conduit by this time. I have no idea what it takes. I have no idea if that's doable or not. And if I could partner up with you and get your insight and feedback, I can go make a plan that's realistic. Now I'm My bosses aren't mad at me because I didn't just surprise them with some crazy unrealistic plan. And then I'm not trying to defend myself and guard here's why I put my schedule together and why I did all the things. And I'm I'm getting into CYA mode now, or I just got to protect myself because I wasn't effectively leading, but I wasn't effectively involving the right people and taking that feedback and learning how to use that feedback, right? And that's that to me is the we we we just gotta work better as an industry. This is an industry thing. We have to build character better because we're promoting people and we're training them how to do things and we're training a lot more tools, but we're not training the character it takes to go influence people to use those tools.

Real Talk On “Training Your Replacement”

SPEAKER_00 23:49

Yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes. I've I've been fortunate in my career. I wish I could just say I designed my career the way I like on purpose, but I didn't, right? I spent over 20 years on the subcontractor side of the business. Then I went to the dark side. I went to work for GC for three and a half years, worked all over the country. So as a subcontractor, I worked on at least a hundred, could be more, I didn't keep count, but at least a hundred different projects in those 20 plus years with different superintendents, different general contractors, all over right. Then I went to work for the GC, and I got to see projects all over the country, did all every market segment. And what I got to see that was like I wasn't looking for it, but it was really interesting when I was on the trade side. I had multiple bosses, most super like internal superintendents, PMs, business unit managers, like people with leadership and influence. And then I got to see the similar thing happen when I was working with the GC amongst trades and GC projects. And it was like the leaders, and when I say leader, I'm gonna say whoever had the most authority on the job site, right? The ones that had like really amazing experiences, meaning the people around them were growing, there was work happening, the people didn't hate each other. It was like a no drama, just awesome, awesome experience. And they were pretty happy, right? The one thing all of those people have in common was they had a people-centered focus, they cared about their people developing and having the conditions to perform well on a daily basis. I have had superintendents back when I was a foreman that were like that, not a bunch of them. When I was an installer, I had foremen that were like that, not a bunch of them. When I was on the GC side, I got to see PMs, PXs, superintendents, all of the above, same thing. Like the now, some people get that confused and they think that I'm talking about the powder puffs, right? The the ones that were real nice with everybody, and just I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. They didn't tolerate BS either. And that was part of the recipe of them making sure the conditions were set for people to thrive and grow. You want to guess how many times I've been able to see that? Oh, I'll tell you so, as an installer, there were before I got into superintendent and whatever, three projects in my whole career. Wow. Three projects. The rest were smack talking, short-sighted, no planning, blaming ignorant GCs. And guess what? I was as ignorant as they were. I knew how to play that game. We're just gonna fight all day, every day. And that was the majority. Yeah. Then I went out, then I got in the office, same thing, low percentage. I had two really, really forward-thinking leaders that I was reported to directly that had that, whatever you want to call it, right? They were they created the conditions and they also didn't tolerate mediocrity for me. When I went to the GC side, same thing, bunches and bunches of projects over those three years, and it was a small handful that significant difference. And I'm not just talking about morale, like schedule performance, budget performance, like promotions, bonuses. I mean, real measurable outcomes of their leadership style. But the one key thing that I got to see in all of them was that they had took an active role in creating the conditions for their people to learn, they developed their people, and they got people off the bus if they didn't belong on the bus. What do you think about that, Mike?

Listener Shoutout And Team Autonomy

SPEAKER_01 27:50

You see that out there sometimes? I mean, I've been with Jay Dunn. This will be my 20th year with Jay Dunn. And I've and I mean there's there's a reason I've I've been with Jay Dunn that long, right? I mean, I I do see I'm proud of the company and that they I think they have really focused on the relationship piece and understanding ports of that. And and that's one thing I've felt like I I've had support there on wanting to build those relationships. Honestly, when I was on the road, we didn't have that luxury of people knew who we were, like because we we're big in Kansas City, right? So there's a lot of people that just they're used to how we work, they know what it takes to work for us, and they're gonna do that, right? And and uh we there's there's a lot of work out there, and they they like working with our people and our teams, and we can get things done. And if they make Jay Dunn mad, we people Jay Dunn call and they say, Hey, this is Jay Dunn, we want stuff right, and they'll say, Okay, and they'll do it. Some people will, but it when you go down to a a site uh that nobody knows who Jay Dunn is, right? Then that becomes really, really big on you have to build the relationships because those people don't know you at all. Yep, they don't care, they don't care about you, they don't care what your company's name is, they don't care how much history you got working, whatever. It's just are you gonna build an effective relationship with them so that they get what they want so that you can move forward? And and I will say that J Dunn has had just key like I will tell you first, Bill Dunn Sr. is uh I think he's under and two right now, the best person that I met in in relationships, dude. Like I I'm an I'm an intern and I'm sitting down at lunch, and this guy he he just comes up and he's like, Hey, anyone sitting here? And he just starts a conversation with me. And my my wife was visiting that she wasn't my wife at the time, but we're just checking out Jay Dunn and and Mr. Dunn, that you know, owner of the company comes up here and just starts talking about World War II and and the bombers and his experience there and all the stuff. And uh that was the kind of guy, I mean, that's why I was like, dude, I'm hooked, I'm excited. Like, that's awesome, right? And and that's the thing is when I I did a little, we talked to old dogs, I did a little old dog truck talk on that. But when I go back in my project history, like I can uh it'll take me a minute, I can go think of the details of what departments we built or what like that, but I can tell you immediately who had a huge impact on me relationship-wise, right? And it's I'm telling you, it is all about building the relationships. And and when we when we value people as people and we get their feedback, man, the sky's the limit on what that team can do, right? And and and unfortunately, I've had several jobs where where that's that's been the case, where it's been building the relationships was key, and we have relationships. I'm not saying everybody's softies, like you were saying, like honestly, this is one of the hardest things for me as it's kind of in-betweener here between the generations, because that boomer generation, man, like they you just crying and you get it done, dude. Yes, and that was the thing is you put in what hours, you do what it takes, and you just get it done. And that's how think of if you think of the leaders and the bosses in today, that's the generation, right? Yeah, and and then now it's there's a lot more of that what's in it for me mentality, right? Where we we have we have been in plenty for a while in the industry, and I came in when it was very, very slim pickings, which is why I was on the road. And I was thank god that Jay Dunn was big enough that I could travel around because otherwise I probably would have been newly married, freshly graduated, and then looking for a job, right? Yeah, yeah. It was actually a blessing I could hit the road during that economic downturn and and be able to keep our uh keep my job, but but a lot of people haven't had that, they haven't experienced that yet. If they've been in the industry, what what less than what 15 years? So yeah, so there is that, there's a a demand right now for people, right? And so so people can pick their, they can pick a few more things that they're gonna work with, but but I'm telling you, those people that maybe I wasn't a big fan of them at the time, but man, I have so much respect for what they taught me now, right? Yeah, and and I mean I even had a couple professors like that, man. I just did not like them at all in their class until I graduated, right? And then they were like my favorite people because they they pushed me, right? Yeah, and we don't want to lose that life's hard, we don't want to lose that construction's hard, and that sometimes you just gotta grind through and you gotta figure that out. And that's a that's something the old dogs have talked about a few times because we all got to where we're at from that grind. But how do you you want to make life better for the industry, but on the flip side of that too, you want them to appreciate what that takes to get to that level, right? And uh and I and Jay Dun's just given me good opportunities to go do that. And uh, and I've I've always had great people in the company, like Gordon, our president now is one of the most people-centered people I know. And I just every every time he speaks, I just absolutely love hearing her speak because it's it's people, right? Right, and that's what gets me fired up. I know I've been in the construction industry for over 20, but people building relationships, people that go build the buildings. That I mean, that's what fires me up, man.

SPEAKER_00 33:39

I yeah, no, totally. I love you said feedback, right? Feedback from the people, you said it earlier, right? If you're gonna judge me on my leadership, ask my team. I don't need to hear it from you, I need to hear it from my team. Tell me. I'm biased towards the trades, always and forever. And it's uh it's funny when I hear a GC team bragging about their lean program or whatever it is, right? They're their magical processes, and I'm like, oh, okay. Where are you getting that feedback from? What do you mean? Well, you're talking about all your systems and everything, your whatever is the best in the world and it's amazing. But y'all aren't the victims of that system. The trades are how many times have you gone to ask the trades how this is working? Right and the answer is always, oh shit, we we we have it. I know that's not a judgment, it's it's just something to think about when we we actually did a debrief on a project because I was with the trade on that specific project, and I had to deal with my teams, right? And and because I was kind of I was an office rat by this time, and whenever they wanted me to come out to the project, my only condition was I will go to the project, but you can't take me into any meetings, and you can't let any of the GC staff know that I'm there because I was responsible for all of our manpower. I was placed at that point in time, I was the one that assigned people to projects and the whole thing. I was also responsible for training, etc. And I said, if the GC knew that I was there and now I'm that guy, they're gonna, I'm not gonna be able to help you, and they're just gonna bug the hell out of me and complain and tell me all their problems. So I was out there on a weekly basis helping them smooth a bunch of stuff out, and I got to see the execution of their super fancy plan and program, and it was a disaster for the traits. It was good for them, like for real, it was it was good. The project worked out, but it the execution was just it was poorly done. And then I went to work for that firm, and I heard them bragging about oh, this is our gold seal, gold star problem. What that was a disaster. What are you talking about? But obviously, there was no feedback loop to help them see, and it was small, it was those small big things, right? That really undermined the culture and the the relationships. There was no relationship, so just everything was very transactional. So we got the feedback loop going, and they were like, ooh, yes, we did that. Yes, now we see. And so point being, the feedback loops are super tight and taking intentional steps to really source the trades. And for anybody out there that's listening, I'm not talking about getting the project manager for the sub to give you feedback or their business development or their VPs or the executives, because those people are gonna tell you what you want to hear because they want more work from you. You need to ask the foreman and the installers that are on site, how is this working for you? You think I'm talking like is that too crazy, too ambitious?

Exit The Spotlight And Grow Leaders

SPEAKER_01 37:04

No, I think I think that's important, and I will say I I I think Jade Un does a good job of getting feedback, but I will say it's probably it is probably largely at least the documented stuff is at the office level, right? And this is why lean is important for execs, because if you are doing lean yourself and you are getting, say you're just let's just take the line from Scrum. If you're doing twice the work in half the time, then you now have margin and capacity. Now, that margin and capacity isn't to go do the more things. That's what your people want to do, right? You need to use that to go have time to go walk a job and just be curious on the job site. Look around, stop, talk to somebody. How are things going? How does the because cool? I'm telling you, when you got heart in it, like when people are behind the mission, you can feel it. You can I can step in a trailer and I can feel in five minutes how this culture is, right? And and and uh that's something that you need to get that vibe on the job site too. And if everyone's grinding and upset, and but then you go up here and everyone says it's awesome. Well, yeah, you're getting stuff done, but are people enjoying it, right? Because people will go grind for you for a while, right? And just because they're getting stuff done doesn't mean that they're hard and soul and like you bought their hands, you bought their head, but have you bought the heart? Are you getting the heart? Right. And the heart, the heart shows up like year two, year three, or if there's choices, do people stay with you, right? That's where you know that they truly appreciate working there, right? And and in this day and age, man, we have a huge uh demand for all that. So, so we've just got to make sure that we are we are taking more time to go get that real feedback. And and here's the thing like as much as we try to standardize feedback and stuff like that, there is something to just go do it, right? Like just go talk to a person, yes, yes, and and and if you feel like hey, I I'm thinking of your firebox as you're going through this, because we have those you got to think about what is your goal, right? And if my goal is just to do things, then if I'm doing the firebox, then talking to this person at the water cooler, that's a waste of time, right? That's that's not what I want because my goal is just to do more things, right? But if my goal is relationships, then that time is now very important at the water cooler, and I need to not do so many task things so that I can have and actually be present and enjoy that time at the water cooler, right? Um, so that I think that's something that the the strong doers when we go get promoted, that's something that's hard for us is we feel like if we're busy, we're we're sitting down grinding on things, yep, and we gotta realize that if the goal now is developing people, we've got to go learn people, right? We can't develop people if we don't know them, right?

SPEAKER_00 40:25

Yep. No, and that takes time. I I my prediction, my mission both are the individuals, and I'm not even gonna say companies, because you know as well as I do, there ain't one damn company that has a consistent experience on every single one of their job sites. They got hot spots and they got cold spots. I'll just say that. But the leaders, the influencers on those jobs, the decision makers on those projects or the business units or whatever, the ones that make an investment in providing an experience where people feel appreciated are going to win the talent game. Period. And so, like you said, we can get efficient, we can scrum it, we can pull it, we can do whatever you want to it. But if you're not reallocating that bandwidth, that time to connect with people and make a memorable experience for all the men and women that come on the job side, they're gonna go somewhere they feel appreciated. Because, like you said, they have a choice. And even worse now, compared to 15 years ago, you can make money on the internet selling pictures on your feet. Like, I don't you and I did you you probably had to feel not me, people have probably paid me to not show my but the point is people can make money from home now. Before we had to go and fill out a paper application and go in for an interview and do all of this, you don't have to do that anymore. You can there's all kinds of ways to make money online. So if I could sit at home wearing my flip-flops all day long and work five or six hours for 30, 40 grand, or have to wake up and drive across town and go put up with people yelling at screaming at me for 60, I'll take the 30 or 40, baby, all day long. And so I think it's imperative, and I'm glad like folks like you, the old dogs and so forth, are really focusing on how do we build these relationships? How do we stop treating subcontractors as disposable, right? Like long-term relationships, how do we invest in people? How can we differentiate ourselves by saying when trades come to our project, not only do they make money, but their personnel leave with more a bigger skill set, a new, a more a better way of doing the work? Those contractors are the ones that are gonna win the game. I'm betting everything on it, Mike. We'll see if I win. What do you think?

Character Over Competency In Promotions

SPEAKER_01 42:57

Yeah, I think it's all about relationships. And I I mean, there are a lot of companies out there you can build uh that they'll build the building for you. And and I've talked to owners about that too. But what's that experience? What's that, what does it feel like when it's being built? And I and that's a huge, that's a huge goal for us is to make that experience and the relationship piece a key of that. Yeah. Yeah, I don't nobody's per we're not perfect, not every job's perfect by any means, but but I think the you know, we all gotta be on a path and we all just gotta be real with that. I mean, let's be honest, everything that our owners want, everything that we talk about in our meetings, none of that happens if the people out on the job site aren't there, right? True. And if they don't feel like they got flow and they don't feel like they can just do their job and have plan their day and go execute their work and and feel like they're appreciated in doing that, then they won't they won't be around, right? And I mean you can see that now work's hard, right? Porn concrete in the middle of a summer is and masonry work is hard. Well, who are the people that have been in this digital native world that are gonna go sign up for that now? You know, we're we're seeing that in the industry, right? We're that's why there's such a big push right now on career innovation centers and the STEM stuff and and getting the trades into the high schools because this is uh this is gonna be a big problem here if we don't start thinking about what is that environment like for these workers? How do we go get people into the industry, right? Yeah, yeah, to be thinking about. And that honestly, that to me is why I joined the old dogs and why that's so important to me is because of that very thing, the knowledge gap that we have, right? Like people understanding, appreciating the industry, but also people closing that gap between the people working on the job site and then the people up in an office or out of off the job site. Like, how do we go bridge that gap, right? How do we bridge that? How do we build those relationships? How do we get more aligned there? How do we get everybody on the same page and empowered and feel like they're working and moving forward? And then k kids in the industry. And how do we teach them how to appreciate the industry and what opportunities are available in the industry and how rewarding it can be to go see the work that you put in place every day and and and to track track those things and track your improvement. That stuff's all important. And and that's that's why the old dogs exist, right? Is to try to bridge that gap. And that's what I love about it. I can I can have a meeting and talk to people from all over the country that are on job sites with different companies and different people all over the job, all over the country, and we can get their feedback and their input on what are their struggles, what are their lessons learned, what are the what are the wins? And we can all just get better from that. Man, it pumps me up every time I'm on one of those calls because it's just it's just cool stuff you learn. And man, if we could get that down to the trade levels, if we could start sharing those wins at the trade levels, and we could start just even small things like in a safety huddle. What if we do uh talk about character for a little bit? Max Story's got a good toolbox tip thing where you just pull it up and it's all about character, right? We've started experimenting with that on our job site. I really love the content in there, and it's been cool. You can start to see some discussion happening now and people thinking about that. And and what if what if we ask people what they're excited about? What if we ask people what they're those are those are wonderful ways to connect people and make those relationships?

SPEAKER_00 46:40

What if we just treated people like they were people? I'm not being sarcastic, but I mean I've been applying to that for so long, and and to your point, I think the industry is largely blind to it, and I'm excited, like it's not great, but I'm excited about this massive labor shortage that is manifesting itself slowly. The funny thing to me is this is not news. We knew, I mean, hell, Mike, it was 1995. I graduated high school, I went to an apprenticeship orientation thing, and they said the average age of a journeyman plumber in Texas at that time was like 47. And for every two that was exiting the industry, there was one coming in. I was 18. I said, I'm gonna make a lot of money, like it was clear, there's not gonna be enough, and that was that was based on the boomer generation leaving the industry, which again, that's not news. We've known it this whole time, and we have not done enough to to mitigate that loss. Now, what we didn't anticipate, I think, as a we'll just say world, was how how much technology, how many doors that was going to open for just about every damn person in the world. And so that's compounding the problem. I'm glad that we have this problem because it's going to force decision makers out there in the industry to do it differently. Historically, what we've done is just throw money at it. Money ain't enough no more. Money's not a differentiator of benefits and competitive compensation. So what? How are you gonna treat me? And that's what I'm here to support. Most of the things, most of the stuff I do is super, super people focused. How can we make it invest in ourselves so we can better serve people? How can we redesign the work to better serve the people that were doing the work? All of it is focused on creating an experience for everybody that comes on site to grow and learn and thrive, period. Because the people that do it, I'm telling you, I think they're they're gonna win the game, no doubt. Now you mentioned, we've mentioned the old dogs, and you said there's a call. I'm guessing there's a monthly call. Well, no, twice a month.

SPEAKER_01 49:04

Yeah, so anyone can go join the coffee, the lean coffee that we have once a month. Okay. Um, and and that's open for anybody. And then there is a you know, for the members, there's another call where we're actually start learning. Uh, like we had we had Genius Spark for our Heather Armand walked us through that with Rex Miller's Genius Spark, and you're gonna be on there, and Felipe is gonna be on there, and we're gonna have so the goal is the pack learns new tricks, right? And then we need to go try the new tricks, and we need to go spread that slowly on these job sites, right? And and take those lessons we're learning and go share those within the community and help each other all go get better, right? But then there's the the reaching the community and the knowledge share piece on that, and that's the the lean coffee. What are the you got all this all this construction experience here? What are things on your mind? What are things you want to talk about? And anyone can go pitch those items and we'll just talk about them and we'll share wisdom, right? And then there's also the piece of okay, how do we go speak to the universities and how do we go share some tidbits and lessons learned with the students? So the cadence is the the community meeting and then the the member meeting where we go learn some new tricks, right? Nice. Uh and then we'll have the we'll have the visits to the universities that come periodically. So let's say let's let's get to a goal of let's say quarterly for for now, but we'll you know that we'll just kind of see how that how that works too. But we definitely have a big goal to talk to people coming into the industry. Yeah. Make sure that they are aware of some of the lessons learned and knowledge there.

Feedback Loops With Trades That Work

SPEAKER_00 50:51

So beautiful. I love it. That I love it because there's two things that I particularly love about it. One is there's clearly a desire and an appetite for that community, right? From what I understand, the majority of the people in there are superintendents or are on the GC side of the business. Right. The fact that so many people have signed up in such a short period of time is a signal that people are out there just looking for like-minded individuals and they feel like they're alone in an island. So I think there's massive just value in that. The second thing I like about it is I know I happen to know a bunch of the old dogs, and they're my type of people. So it's attracting a particular type of leader that I'm gonna say, when I say leader, I'm not talking about somebody with authority. I'm talking about somebody that is actively engaged in learning and learning how to and actually developing people. Not developing people in Jesse Land, you are not a leader. And so what I see is a concentration of leaders that continue to be attracted to the thing and help it grow, which I absolutely love. Now, the one thing that that I want to plant in your head and in the LM family's head out there, and it's kind of the session that I'm gonna do with you guys here. I think it's in March, March or April. I think we're missing the distribution part of the idea. And the idea is share the knowledge, right? How do we do close the knowledge gap, transfer the knowledge? And that people have been talking about that again. It's another one of those forever, right? There's people capitalizing on it, building rinky dink LM learning and management systems, and just wishy-washy time. And it's there, and people are paying big bucks for it. What I think the distribution is, and you've said it multiple times, it's people. And and so if I want to connect with the high school, with the university, with the trades, nobody cares about we said it earlier, right? There's the competency, said what was it, 17, 83 character. I think the focus on how do we get this knowledge and transfer it, who cares? If nobody likes you, there's no knowledge to there's nowhere to transfer the knowledge. So then the question is how do you help people like you? Now it's not about changing your behavior to make people like you, it's how do you let people know that you're out there? And that's where I that's what Adam I got with Adam, bro. Y'all are talking about transferring knowledge, but I only see two or three of the old dogs that are active. That's the mission. Why aren't the old dogs being more visible so that they can attract people to impart the knowledge onto?

SPEAKER_01 53:53

Yeah, no, that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I mean, yeah, I think that's the thing, is as you're learning the new tricks, like you need to go try them, you need to go start influencing the job sites, you need to start sharing those lessons learned. And that, yeah, LinkedIn's a good way to publicly share that stuff for sure. But uh it is gonna be if we are working on job sites and we're and and over the ones we're running, we probably won't see that impact like right away, right? We're gonna start to see it when the uh more old dogs join or lessons learned come from other parts of the team, and we can go share that. And and so I yeah, I think we have to the ones that are there, probably we probably need to be better about if you've got ideas, share them. If you've got lessons learned, share them. We need to do a better job on that piece, and and then there's also this other piece that's probably over time we're gonna start to see. I think the roots are coming up, they're starting to pop through. We're starting to see a plant, and I think we'll start to see some fruits there over the next couple of years as job sites start trying these things and learning from them.

SPEAKER_00 55:05

Yeah. Grassroots effort 100%. I that there's y'all are y'all are on to something, no, no doubt it's gonna be impactful in the industry. And I'm glad that y'all are gonna let me move my mouth there for a little bit. Oh, many times, Jesse. I'm grateful that I'm gonna be hanging out with you live and in person here in a couple of weeks.

SPEAKER_01 55:26

Dude, I am really excited for that. I am telling you, the the SQI that you did at LCI and my brother got to go to that. Man, that was that's a game changer. It really is. And learning that and then seeing the the ergonomics lesson that our friend from across the pond taught us. Yeah, he was it was game changing. I mean, to to look at what's hard for the worker and and what are they stressing and straining on, they can do that today, right? Go do that for five years, and they're not gonna have a back anymore, they're not gonna have arms anymore. And and those are the things that really just changed how I ever view a safety walk. I will never do a safety walk the same after hearing that from y'all. So that's really that right there is industry changing, and I hope that everybody can catch on and learn that. So we got our two jobs that that I have influence on. We're coming together. We're gonna have Jesse for a day, and he is just gonna, he's gonna teach us how to manage our time and get that firebox figured out, and then we're gonna go try to hit the job side and and learn what we can see. But you know that's what I love about what you're doing is that that that is a very, very, very intentional reason why lean principles are very important, right? Because we talk about this is a good example of you can go track on a job site. Here's all the ways we eliminated waste at that GC level you're talking about, right? We did this, we did this, we did this, cool. And then you go to the job site and the talk to the workers, and they're like, man, this sucks, right? But you right there, what you're doing is you're going to the worker. You are literally eliminating waste, but you're doing it in something that's very, very important to the worker because it's going to give their back another 10 years. You know what I mean? So the lean principles are very, very important, but the why behind the lean transformation and the lean principles is a very key part that we cannot forget. Amen. Because the again, it's the people, the respect for people right there in the middle. And that's harder to measure because people are tough. So it's easy to go grab the the spreadsheet and go track the productivity and those things. That's all good. The people are they being impacted? Are their lives being better by that? That's the what it's all about, right?

SPEAKER_00 58:03

Yeah, okay. I got introduced to the lean construction in 2000.

SPEAKER_01 58:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:10

And it wasn't until let's see, what are we in? 26? Man, it was 2020, maybe when I finally, oh, that's why everybody hates me. I because I didn't care, it wasn't about making the work better for people. It was for me, it was always about optimizing the process, producing the outcomes, getting the goals, making it faster, making it easier, not easier, making it cheaper. Right. I didn't care about how you felt. And I anyways, when I finally saw the light, I'm like, oh my god. And then I did it that way. Let me just make this better for you. And they liked it, and they like they didn't avoid me, and they would ask for my ideas on the next piece of work.

SPEAKER_01 58:52

I was like, man, I've been doing your Yeah, no, I I'm with you, man. I had that I was introduced to pole planning, right? And I didn't know it was a lean thing or not, but someone came down and trained us in pole planning, and I liked that it just brought people together and I could talk to them. Now I finally at least had a method to go capture the notes on what people were saying, and it was really visual, which which helped me, right? So I locked in on that and and used that, but then we did have this lean movement, and we had or we wanted to use lean more on jobs, right? And and then I had someone come up to me and they said, Hey, I want to do lean on your job, and I gotta go tell your superintendent that he doesn't know what he's doing and he's got to do things this way. And I was like, You're crazy, get off my job. So so I had written off lean at that point. Yeah, and and I was like, No, if that's what it's it's if you're gonna add more work and tell people that have been building for 20 years that they don't know what they're doing, uh, then that's not gonna work. Now, I will give credit to Mr. Dan Shipley, who I've not given enough credit to on podcasts lately. Sorry, Dan. But but Dan Shipley, it really turned that corner for me. And again, it's a relationship piece. Yep. And it wasn't because he came in and had he would come sit in my office and just talk to me and built a relationship with me. And then I was like, okay, we'll try this out. And then, dude, when I saw results, dude, I was like, I'm in it. He broke up a beast, right? And and but it was because he built a relationship with me. He didn't come in telling me what to do right away, right? Yeah. Construction people were we're proud, right? We don't you you come in telling what to do. I've been doing this for a long time, right? But if you go get if this is why you have to go to people and you say what bothers them, right?

unknown 1:00:43

Yep.

Relationships As A Competitive Advantage

SPEAKER_01 1:00:44

And then you're using your lean toolbox to go fix what bothers them. Yes. And now you've got a fan, right? And and and so that that's a key that you know. So if if if Dan didn't come in and build that relationship with me, I would not have tried it on like last kill on those projects, and then I wouldn't have had those results, and it wouldn't have blown up the beast you see before you today that just talks about lean all the time and bugs everybody with it.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:15

So yeah, no, I feel you, man. It and that is the secret. What's kicking you in the face? Sure, I got all this lean stuff that that was like my ultra ultra. I just I'd show up on the project with superintendent and say, Man, look, man, I don't have time for you today. Like, it's cool. I I it was on my list, your job's on my list. I was supposed to come and check it out. You're busy, the team's busy. Is it okay if I post up right here in the trailer and just work? Yeah, okay. And I was listening and watching and seeing what was painful for them. Right. And then I said, Hey man, all right, thanks for letting me hang out. Hey, I noticed that this looks like it's like it's something that you're struggling with. Yeah, I'm sick and tired of what okay. I have an idea. Let me show you. And then I whatever it was, right? I kind of show get some blue tape on the walls and say, if you did, how do you think that would work? Man, that's I I like it. Okay. You want you want to try it, or you want me to kind of walk the whole team through it? Can you come back next week and walk the absolutely? And it was just that. Okay, I made a little bit better for him. Then he said, you know what? Yeah, what else you got? I said, Well, here's but here's the pain points that I see. I have something for this one, this one, and this one. Which pain point do you want to attack first? Right. Whereas before that, what I would do is I'd come with my my what do you call that? When you're at the doctor, they kind of pull up the clipboard and they see, oh yeah, you got these things. You need a shot and you need a pill, and you need a I'd come out and say, Okay, you're doing it wrong. You're doing it wrong. Why haven't you started this? This is what you need to do. Here's all your eight ways, here's your 5S program, looks like crap. Fix it. Right. And nobody liked me when I did it that way. No, and and you and it's not effective, right? Right, not not effective at all, 100%. Oh man, well, we could, I'm sure we could tell lean war stories forever, but I wanna did did I give you a heads up about the closing question, Mike? I don't think so. Okay, good. And I I suspect that yours is gonna be one of those profound, really forward-thinking responses just because of the type of person you are. It's clear that you value people, it's clear that you've walked many paths and you've taken the good from that, and now you're you're out there working to make it better for others, not just yourself. So here is the question What is the promise you are intended to be? The promise that I am intended to be.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:52

Well, I I think I think everybody that is on this earth has a has a reason we're here. And we have a unique reason why we're here that only we can do. And so my job is to go find what I'm designed to do, and then I need to go do it to my heart's content. And and this is why I need to go be intentional on learning the lessons as I go, the learnings and missteps. I have had a few, right? I don't want to start singing Frankie Sinatra right now, but but I've had a few, right? And and the thing is, I I'm on a path, I'm on a journey, I'm on a design that I am intended to have, right? And and what I need to do is I need to be intentional on doing that. And my my job is going to be influencing people as I go. I've I've got to go, my family has got to go further than I did, right? I gotta go climb that mountain and I gotta go do what I'm supposed to do, and I gotta hand that baton off, and they gotta go keep going and keep climbing and getting it higher. And and I I am so thankful for the people that have come before me, that have set good examples and set a good foundation for me. But my job is to go intentionally make that impact, make the world our the world will be a better place if we do what we're designed to do. And and I need to go do that. And that's why your firebox and eliminating waste, and if we get our goal right and our goal is people, we are going to be intentional about those relationships with people. And I'm telling you, when I when I die, no one's gonna give a rip about how many jobs I built or what jobs I built or if they were gas stations or if they were multi-story buildings or stadiums. No one's gonna care about that. No one's gonna care if I got 20 spreadsheets done and someone else got five done. They're gonna care, they're gonna care about the relationship, right? They're gonna care about the influence. And at the end of the day, when we die, it all goes away except for that influence. And that's that's what we need to be intentional about. So that that would be my my goal, my destination, and that that I hope is everybody's because there is nobody here that's here by accident that doesn't that doesn't have their own people that they have to impact that no one else can impact.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:27

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:27

So let's go do it.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:31

Dude, nailed it. Like every single one of us, no matter what, the only thing that's gonna be left behind is the influence that we've had on others. Freak brilliant, bro. Brilliant. Did you have fun?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:46

No, dude. Always have fun with you. I'm so excited when we get to live. I get to give you a big old bear hug again. It's gonna be awesome. Yo, now wear the Hawaiian shirts, though. I want to see Hawaiian shirts the whole time. Count on it, brother. Count on it. I that is my favorite attire. All right. Well, I'm going to tell the team that we expect Hawaiian shirts throughout that whole room. Yeah. So I'm going to make sure it's going to be a colorful bunch. It's going to be awesome. They're going to be ready to go.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:13

Dead four. Thank you for sticking it out all the way to the end. I know you got a whole lot of stuff going on. And in appreciation for the gift of time that you have given this episode, I want to offer you a free PDF of my book, Becoming the Promise You're Intended to Be. The link for that bad boy is down in the show notes. Hit it. You don't even have to give me your email address. There's a link in there. You just click that button, you can download the PDF. And if you share it with somebody that you know who might feel stuck or be caught up in self-destructive behaviors, that would be the ultimate. You sharing that increases the likelihood that it's going to help one more person. And if it does help one more person, then you're contributing to me becoming the promise I am intended to be. Be kind to yourself, be cool, and we'll talk at you next time.